Search Interviews:

Jeremy Weisz  3:57

I want to talk and you know, we’ll fast forward to your background a little bit. But I know you’re from New Jersey, I know that, you know, you say like you weren’t the best student that you really took to bodybuilding. And I don’t know if you still do that. And I’d love for you to talk start off talking about just some of the discipline in bodybuilding and business and when you started to hit marketing and the business seem bigger, and people saw what you’re doing, they may have like, oh, he got lucky they don’t see the grid and all of this stuff that you’re doing behind the scenes. So just talk about the discipline piece from the bodybuilding to the marketing and what what it takes as far as that goes.

Todd Brown  4:37

Yeah, great question. I don’t get to talk about this often. But uh, yeah, I mean, look, I grew up I was really a really skinny kid. I was always short still. I’m short. I’m only five five. And so I was like this really tiny, you know, tiny dude. And so in my sophomore year, but actually let me back up. So I wrestled in high school and the funny thing was that I was Like 20 pounds under the lowest weight class a wallet and while everybody else was weighing in in their underwear on the scale, I was like wearing my jacket, like, you know, I was weighing in and fully clothed. And I remember the other team used to laugh, like anytime I got on the scale, they would laugh and so I decided that I was going to start weightlifting to see if I could put on any any weight. This was my sophomore year now in high school. And for whatever reason my body just really took to two weight training I put on like 15 pounds or something like that the first year that I was training, and then I decided that I was just going to continue, continue training, what attracted me to bodybuilding and what I what I loved about bodybuilding besides the physical transformation was that I was 100% responsible for my success. So it was all about me the effort that I put in I wasn’t there was no team there was nobody else that I could point the finger at. It was was all about me. And I found number one that that I wanted the goal so bad I wanted to be successful competing on stage so bad that when it came to things like my my workout schedule, and doing cardio and eating six times a day at specific times, specific foods, specific portions, all that that the desire for the goal was stronger to me than the desire to cheat or deviate or any of that kind of stuff. And so, you know, people used to look at me as Super disciplined even still to this day, like my wife who knew me back then. I’ve known her that long. My wife would say like you’re, you know, the most disciplined person I know, I really think first and foremost, the lesson for everybody is that even when folks asked me What’s the secret to discipline, I always say like, Look, you either want it or you don’t. And that’s the truth. The truth is when people are like how do you get motivated every day, like the goal that you have, the mission that you are on, the vision that you have for yourself should be so strong, that that is where all the motivation and drive comes from. And if not, I would tell you that you either need to find a different goal or outcome or you need to dig deeper into the goal to find out and to really get in tune with why it’s important to you. Because you either want it or you don’t, right. And if you want it bad enough, you’re gonna do what you’ve got to do. And so as it relates to the, you know, to the disciplines, I think, look, you know, you you have to, to put this into something that’s actionable for folks, you have to identify what you need to be doing daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, to hit whatever goal it is that you have for your business, you shouldn’t be showing up to the computer and wondering what am I going to do today? or What am I going to do this week you shouldn’t be rethinking your whole strategy and approach on a constant basis like rethinking your model rethinking your methods you want to make a commitment to what it is that you’re you’re going to do to reach your goal and then you put your nose to the grindstone and you do it and so the beauty with you know like the beauty with that with bodybuilding and this goes for just all physical transformations everybody is constantly looking for the magic bullet the magic bullet diet the magic bullet weight training or fitness program and Is this better? Or is this better? Does this work? Or does that work right? Same thing with marketing. Same thing with business growth, when the reality is is that most of the methods work if you just put your nose down and just continue to press forward with patience, you just got to do it day in and day out. You got to be committed to doing it day in and day out. And that commitment comes from having this burning desire to reach the outcome a desire that is more powerful than deviating from that path. Does that make sense?

Jeremy Weisz  8:57

Totally. And I want to talk about um, you know, irresistible offer I remember when you spoke at Brian’s you almost reverse engineer a sales letter or sales copy by starting with the offer and you approach it differently from what I’ve heard from from a lot of people and I love how you kind of went through it but it makes perfect sense. So I love to talk about what needs to be an irresistible offer. And I remember you know, just reverse engineering. You know, I strive to be like you with the with more of my workouts actually but you know, I just recently I decided I’m gonna train from Murph. Okay. And people don’t know the Murphy’s. You can look it up. It’s a cross train. And by the way, I don’t do a lot of weightlifting. But it’s funny when you get a coach and expert knows what you’re doing, they start to just reverse engineer with you. And that’s why it’s, it’s really important, whatever you decide to do to have a mentor or a coach to walk you through and make sure you’re doing the right steps because there’s so many of those things. So talk about the offer and In the irresistible offer a little bit. Yeah.

Todd Brown  10:02

So I love this topic. Let’s start let’s back up just a second to make sure that everybody’s got the the context here. So first and foremost, what is an offer? Right? So an offer is what does the prospect get? And what do they need to give? And do to to get it? And so what does the prospect get? And what do they need to do and give to get it now in that, in that context, it’s important for folks to understand, we’re not only talking about like, the, the the money, right, that they that they give, and we’re not only talking about the product that they get, but we’re talking about what is the time energy effort on risk learning adoption that the prospect has to go through to get the reward? So when we’re talking about what does the prospect get? Yes, we’re talking about what are the deliverables like what’s the product, what are the physical things that get put in their hand, but we’re also and especially talking about the results, the outcome, the transformation, the change, the alleviation of pain, all of that stuff. And then what do they need to do, or give to get it, that includes money, but that also includes their time, energy, effort, learning, study, and so on. And you’ll understand in just a bit, why it’s important to view an offer that way. Now the next point that I want to make before we dive into the components of an irresistible offer, is this that the offer is, is a make or break component of every marketing campaign, meaning that this to put it plainly meaning that a great offer and over the top offer what we call a SYN offer superior irresistible, no brainer, a great offer can make up for a lot of marketing weaknesses, a lot of marketing shortcomings. Like with a great offer, you don’t have to be that great of a marketer or salesperson, you don’t have to have a great, great marketing copy, right like and you can still do really well. But great marketing, copy, great marketing, great funnel, all that stuff will never make up for a run of the mill, plain vanilla ordinary offer. And so the offer is the single most important component of any marketing campaign second, to just making sure that you’ve identified the right audience. So assuming that you’ve got the right audience, you’re talking to the right people, the people that would be interested in your, your product or service, the next priority is the offer way ahead of the copy the message, the idea, the hook, the theme, all of that stuff. And so it is, it is not important, the better the offer is, the easier everything else becomes, the weaker the offer is, the harder everything else becomes and you will never have the level of success that you could until you have a great offer. So what makes for a an irresistible offer. And so there are really two categories two kind of umbrellas that we’re going to we’re going to we’re going to talk about. So the first umbrella is what I would call an irresistible proposition. And irresistible proposition. This is what most most marketers think of when they think about an offer this is of course what are the deliverables right so you could say the features advantages benefits what are the what’s the stuff that people get right like you know if it’s an information product or something like that it’s videos it’s audios, it’s workbooks, cheat sheet checklist, it’s all that stuff, it’s the stuff that they actually get, then there is price and terms right so terms are you know, like you might be the price might be 1000 bucks, but is it 1000 bucks today is it 1000 bucks in a month is it for payments of 250 Is it one payment today of 100 and then you know, nine more payments of of 100 every month hereafter and so what are the terms right and just as a side note, you can radically change an offer without changing anything else other than the terms meaning you could go from what’s called a hard offer your traditional typical it’s 1000 bucks you pay it today you take the product home you use it in blah blah blah to a soft offer pay nothing today take the product home use it and only pay in 30 days when you’re blown away by what this thing will do for you. And so you can manipulate and change and offer and the response that you get just by changing the terms and nothing else. But so we’ve got you know, we’ve got the deliverables, we’ve got the price, we’ve got the terms, you’ve got premiums and bonuses. Those are the freebies that come with the main core deliverables, then you’ve got risk reversal. And so that you know typically we’re talking about you know, a guarantee, and there are so many different types. There’s unconditional conditional, there’s a combination there’s money back, there’s double your money back there’s will keep or there’s so many different variables. have that. And then of course, there is a reason to respond now. And that’s when you build in and you engineer things like urgency and scarcity, legit real things in there, deadline, all that kind of jazz. And so those components and manipulating those components are how we are able to engineer an irresistible proposition. And that’s where the majority of marketers and entrepreneurs go, and where the majority of entrepreneurs and marketers think when they’re trying to develop an irresistible, irresistible offer. But that’s only one part of it, what most Don’t think about is the other category, if you will, or the other kind of umbrella, if you will. And that is what I call an attractive solution. And attractive solution is really takes into account things like how easy is it for the prospect to use the product or service and get the result? And how fast does it work to bring them the, the the result? And how big of a result, will it bring them? Right? So this is an important point, right? That you want, what you want to do is you want to first and foremost engineer and attractive solution, engineer, engineer a solution, right. And let me take a step back for one second and say this, that everybody doesn’t matter what your marketing and selling everybody is offering a solution. Because what people buy people buy products and services to solve problems. Those those problems could be pain points, right? Like things that are painful things that they’re unhappy with frustration, struggles or obstacles that they want to get rid of those problems could also be unfulfilled needs or desires. And so I want a gorgeous green, lush lawn, and I have no idea how to do it. That’s an unfulfilled desire, if you will, both of those we call a problem, what people spend money on what people invest in our solutions to their problems. People don’t want products and services for the products and service or service itself. They want the products and services for what they believe those products and services will do for them, right they invest in products and services, because they believe that it will solve a problem alleviate a pain point or give them an unfulfilled desire at the root of that is how attractive is the solution that we are offering to somebody? So while we may be talking about having a green lush lawn, well, how attractive is the is the solution? forget how irresistible the proposition is to get the solution for a second, how attractive is the solution itself? Is it going to require five hours of my time outdoors every day, seven days a week for the next six months? Right? Is it going to require me to make a massive investment in tools and technology is it gonna force me to hire somebody is going to have me working with chemicals that I don’t want to want to work with? Is it going to take me three months before I see a single, you know, grass blade sprout up and so how attractive is the solution. So in an ideal world, when putting together these irresistible offers, we want to start by engineering and attractive solution, right and, and the closer we can get to something that is easy to use, and implement and reap the rewards something that works quickly to to produce the result, something that like, you know, the transformation happens with call it the little work on on on their on their part, there is a we convey confidence like assurance in them experiencing the the, the result, and then we take that attractive solution and now with that attractive solution. Now we wrap it in an irresistible proposition. And so when you’ve got a really attractive solution, something that produces the result that the prospect wants, something that overcomes the problem that they that they desperately want, dealt with, right and we have em right we we engineer this attractive solution that works quickly. It’s easy, it’s easy to implement, blah, blah, blah, it’s gonna work work fast. And then we offer it with an irresistible proposition, meaning price terms, premiums, bonuses, risk reversal. That’s how you put together an irresistible offer.

Jeremy Weisz  19:26

I love it. And I want to talk specifically Todd, there is a point in time where you were speaking at a conference and a person came up to you afterwards I’d love for you to tell this story because there’s stuff going on in a potential customers mind that we have no idea and and I would love to I don’t know if you remember what the offer was or product or risk reversal because I’ll have you tell the story. But sometimes, people have failed over and over and over again and you’re not just overcoming what’s on the page. You’re overcoming all of their past experiences. Of what they’ve dealt with. So yeah, talk about that moment of time What happened?

Todd Brown  20:05

Yeah. And so it’s great and you’re spot on man, you know, we are, you know, human beings are just we’re complex creatures. And we’re never marketing and selling in a vacuum. Right? Meaning like, you know what people think oftentimes new marketers, new entrepreneurs, they think that they’re marketing and selling to people as if they were a blank canvas, like they’re starting from scratch with these people and not realizing you’re not starting with a blank canvas. These people have prior beliefs and experiences. They have a perspective, many, some people may be jaded because of prior experiences and purchases, and and there are deep fears and risks that the prospect perceives they have not just financial, but you know, is this going to, you know, am I going to be embarrassed? Am I going to be intimidated? Am I going to be overwhelmed? Am I going to be over work, right? Like, is this going to be bad for my reputation, there’s so many, so many things that we’ve got to, you know, remember that and people are dealing with all kinds of obstacles. And I was reminded of this, so years ago, and I’ll never forget this years ago, I was speaking at a conference. Again, this is many years ago. And so I don’t remember the topic that I was talking on. But I got offstage. And I went to the back of the room, they went on, on break right when I was done. And so a whole bunch of people came over to me to talk to me after and there was like this, you know, circle of great people around me asking me follow up questions and kind of sharing with me their story. And out of the corner of my eye, I could see a gentleman standing just like two feet back from the group. And he was just standing there and waiting. And at first I thought maybe he was waiting for somebody to go on break. And then I saw that he was still he was there minutes later, as I was still talking to everybody. And as I continued to go one by one trying to talk to you know, everybody that was waiting to speak to me, I continued to see this gentleman out of the corner of my eye. And finally when I wrapped up with everybody, he he stepped forward and he stepped me. And he shared with me that for a number of years, he had been investing in products and programs and trying things to get his business off the ground. I really wish that I could remember this gentleman’s name, I cannot it pains me to this day that I can’t. But this conversation really impacted me. And he said to me, you know, he said he had tried things. And his wife was basically like, that’s it. He was working a full time job. And his wife said to him, like that’s it like you are done. This is this entrepreneurial thing is just is not for you like we spent an arm and a leg you’ve been trying for years now. And he said to her he had just come across, I

Jeremy Weisz  22:46

think we can all relate to that conversation. The lifetime. Oh, for sure.

Todd Brown  22:50

You know, for sure. Absolutely. I know, I certainly can. And he had come across one of my offers, which I do not remember at the time, what it was. And he said, he said to his wife, he said, You know, he said, babe, just this one last program. I think this this could be it, which Who knows? He could have said that many times before this, is it, this is it. But he said to her justice, one more, you know one more. And then if this doesn’t work, that’s it. Right? I’ll you know, basically I’ll give up on my dream. And I’ll just, you know, I’ll continue to work my gig. He said, and so he and he bought the program. And he said to me, he said, Todd, that was you know, several months ago, I think, like eight months or whatever. He said, that was eight months ago. He said, and I want you to know that I just left my job. And I went full time in my business. And that was just incredible for me. You know, it was incredible for me forget the fact you know, it was it was incredible for me because I and I think this is valuable for everybody, regardless of what marketplace niche, you’re in. That, you know, we have the ability to impact people to change lives, whether you’re you’re working with people for weight loss, or fitness or wealth or relationships or business or marketing or whatever, that we have the chance to impact people and sometimes we don’t even realize the depth at which we can change the course of somebody’s life. This was an individual that now gets to stay. You know, he’s now home, he gets to be with his kids. He gets to live his entrepreneurial dream. He’s got the autonomy, the freedom that he wants, maybe took them longer than he would have liked. I think it takes us all longer than we would like. You know, but that’s the you know, I really truly believe that anybody can be successful if they’re willing to be committed, stay focused, continue to put one foot in front of another. Because if others have done it before you then there’s no reason why you can’t do it.

Jeremy Weisz  24:59

You know, time Want to hear your favorite products or programs that you’ve purchased you know one of the ways I love to learn from the top people like yourself is I like to buy your stuff and what I like to do is pay attention to what someone’s doing right so if I you know someone goes the read the copy right read the copy see what testimonials are there see what risk reversals there buy the products see what the follow up is so I would encourage anyone I mean same thing I know you’re friendly with with Russell Brunson his stuff I love buying the stuff to seeing what the upsell is and buying the upsell to see what happens from there and so there’s no better in my mind lesson to experience someone and their learnings to actually buy the stuff you know and i think you know free so I just want to point out I would love to hear your favorite programs and products you buy but you know you can go to check it out. I think it’s just you get it you just pay for shipping you get a free book you get to experience Todd’s copy what his you know he’s poured probably his blood sweat and tears into that not just a book but but everything around it so what have been some of your breakthrough mentors or products for you

Todd Brown  26:20

Yeah, so I’m I’m also a student just like you I love learning I mean I was I was a terrible student in high school I was a terrible student growing up until I got bit by the marketing bug and then I then I just became a lifelong student and so very similar to you I love buying from the worst because I can go into a sales letter or VSL and be like oh let me see what this person is doing and by the end at the end of the sales letter I’m like oh my gosh, I need to invest in silver I need to subscribe to this thing and so I’m the worst right so because I buy everything and so you want me on your list for sure. Um and I too am I am you know I recognize there’s There is so much to be learned everywhere like I really believe that you know I learned oftentimes just as much from my clients as they do from me you know from our students as much as they do from me I would say that specifically so for me um as you can you know you can see

Jeremy Weisz  27:22

if anyone’s watching this video you can even watch in the background can set is a real background

Todd Brown  27:26

that’s how we know the background Yeah, yeah, um, every now and then I like to pose on the ladder and I tell people People ask me they’re like you have a ladder in your on your in your library at that ladder is more about my lack of height than it is the library truth be told so many of you probably wouldn’t need a ladder to access the top shelf I do. Um, but I like to um to read typically like when I when I start reading a book and I’ll tell you my favorites in just a second but when I when I start reading a book and I find like alright, I think this is going to be solid I always when it’s possible I always download the audio version and then go through them at the same time so as I’m reading I’ll go through the audio so I’m reading and listening to the audio at the at the same time that’s the that’s for me personally that’s the best way for me to to learn I mean look I think um while you know I think copy has changed the the the the art of effective copy has changed and evolved over the years I’m still a big fan favorite still excuse me my I’m a fan of some of my favorites are the old school direct response book so I believe the only book that I have two copies of which is from our our buddy Brian Kurtz is breakthrough advertising by Jean Schwartz I actually have and prior to Brian Kurtz who who now is the publisher of breakthrough advertising by Jean Schwartz This is the greatest marketing book ever published hands down bar none before Brian was publishing it again it you know it there was like copies were like being sold for like $700 so when I got I got a second copy of it as like my backup God forbid something were to happen like I operated with this mentality of God forbid something happened in my house God forbid the house caught fire in the I’m grabbing my breakthrough advertising copy and then pictures of my wife and kids and in that order bowls. Yeah, no, I’m just kidding babe. If you watch this and you listen to that,

Jeremy Weisz  29:36

sending it directly to her Yeah, exactly.

Todd Brown  29:37

Um, I but so breakthrough advertising is is my all time favorite. I believe that it’s a book that you that a serious direct response marketer should read once a year. And every time you read it, you will you will gain something new from it. I’m a how to write a How to write a great how to write a good advertisement from Victor Schwab. I don’t even remember that I’ve read that so many times. That is another tremendous, tremendous book tested advertising methods by john caples. The fourth version so there’s, I think there’s version there five versions, you want the fourth version. Those three are like if you if you read those books once a year, just those three books every year, you get a rock solid foundation of critical, direct response principles, as it relates to, uh, to mentors. So I’ve had a number all of which turned into great friends of mine. So I would say that one of my first mentors is one of my best buddies online today, Rich schefren, who you know, is one of the smartest dudes I know, like a true Brit. Like, you know, like a brilliant guy. Him and Jay Abraham are two just brilliant, like, I understand why they’re such good friends. So rich, Mark Ford, who was really the marketing mastermind behind the Evora companies. He many many folks might know him under his pen name Michael Masterson his book ready fire aim is one of the greatest also business books ever published I believe mark is getting ready to release a new version of that book which everybody should get um and then the the late great Clayton make peace May he rest in peace was a tremendous influence on me and so those guys were and like I said, I’ve learned from many I’ve learned from the best of the best I learned stuff from you know the same the same folks that you you and listeners viewers learn from I’ve learned from almost everybody. Yeah, I

Jeremy Weisz  32:00

Carlene anglais call on I think we talked for two hours, who is kind of a disciple of Clayton Makepeace. And

Todd Brown  32:06

she’s number one. She’s a beast of beast, you know, number one, like student protege? Yeah.

Jeremy Weisz  32:18

Good job tie. You know, when we talk about jean shorts, you do a good job of talking a little bit about the levels of prospect awareness. And how I mean, even reading the book, I think I prefer listening to you talk about summing it up. Can you just give a brief? Just a brief synopsis of that? Yeah.

Todd Brown  32:43

Yeah. And so and I always share every time I talk about the, you know, the prospect, what we call, I call it the prospect awareness pyramid, I put it into a pyramid. And I’ll explain why in just a second. I again, I learned it from Jean Schwartz. And it was really drilled into me by Mark Ford. And so the prospect awareness pyramid, I want you to imagine a pyramid. And there are five levels to this pyramid. And I just want you to look at this, this pyramid, or if you will, this triangle split into five pieces, I want you to look at this pyramid as your market. So your market is made up of people that are in that pyramid in that triangle. And folks are at each of the five of the five levels, the different levels are really based on what is the person aware of so let me let me break this down a little bit. At the very bottom of the of the triangle, the bottom of the pyramid, we’ve got the unaware segment, these are people that are unaware of a problem and therefore they’re not actively looking for a solution. So likely they’re they’re not aware of any problem. They’re not aware of the the different, you know, options out there, like they’re not actively looking for anything, they’re not actively searching for a solution. They’re not considering your product or your service because they’re just unaware. And then one level up on that pyramid, you’ve got problem aware, these are people that are aware that they’ve got a problem, let’s call it low back pain, for example. But they’re unaware of the different options that they have. They’re unaware of like what they’re going there. They’re just aware that they’ve got low back pain and it’s bothering them. And then a one level above problem aware. You’ve got solution aware this, let’s say is the prospect to they’re aware that they’ve got low back pain and now they’re trying to decide between, you know, do I want to go to a chiropractor, do I want to go to a massage therapist? What should I get physical therapy like there’s so many different options, what are the options that I want to that I want to go with so they’re they’re kind of making their way through the different solutions out there. And then yet again, one level up from that is product aware. These are the people that let’s say They’ve narrowed it down to two chiropractic, they realize I want a chiropractor, you know, I want chiropractic care. And now they’re searching for, let’s say, the best chiropractor in West Palm Beach, Florida. And so now they’re trying to decide, right they know the solution they want or the product quote, unquote, that they want. And now they’re comparing the options to get that product. And then one level above, which is the fifth level is most aware. And those are the people that they’re they’re really like they’re aware of what it is that you do your product, your service, they’re aware of the difference between yours and, and the others out there.

And so those are the different the different levels. I’ll explain in just a second, why it’s important that you understand which one of those levels you are targeting. And the reason why I put that into a pyramid is because it’s important for marketers and entrepreneurs to understand that the lower on the pyramid you go, right, so when we go all the way down to the bottom, then we go to the unaware segment, that is the biggest universe, it’s the biggest opportunity, right? It’s the biggest universe of people that you can tap into to grow your business at the same time, it is also the hardest, it’s the hardest to convert, right because obviously we’re talking about people that are unaware of a problem and unaware of the need for any kind of solution right and as you go up the pyramid obviously going up the triangle the the every level of awareness that you go up the marketplace and opportunity for scale decreases. So right once we go from we go problem aware we go solution away, once you get to solution aware and product aware, the market the opportunity, the number of folks for you to tap into, it shrinks exponentially, but it becomes easier to convert. So as you go up the pyramid in terms of who you’re targeting, the universe of people shrinks, but the ease of conversion increases meaning it becomes easier. So there’s this give, there’s this give and take, right so the marketplace may shrink, right? Obviously if you go to the top the most aware we’re really talking about your your customers, your clients, your patience, your tribe, people that know you, right, that’s the smallest universe, easiest to convert smallest universe, right? So smallest, easy, easy to produce the sales, but the smallest opportunity for, for volume of sales, the lower you go on the pyramid, the harder it becomes. But the more opportunity you you have. The last thing that I want to say about this is that is that the thing to understand is this that whatever level, right? So understand that if we were trying to convert an unaware segment, what we are, what we have to say to them, is going to be different than what we’re gonna say to somebody who’s let’s say, at the product, or solution, aware stage, right, or the product aware stage. So the person who’s like I got back pain, I want a chiropractor. Right? Now I’m just looking for the best chiropractor, we would be able to have an ad or a marketing campaign that says something like how to find the best chiropractor in West Palm Beach, Florida. And that would work for those people at that awareness level, that’s not going to work for the people that are unaware, because they don’t have a knee or desire to find a chiropractor. And so what we’re going to say to these different people, is different based on what level of awareness they’re at. And that’s why it’s important to understand what level you are talking to who in your marketplace you’re talking to based on their level of awareness. The last thing I’m going to say is this, and this is important, this is valuable. Whatever level of awareness you create the campaign for, it will work for that level and up, but it will not work for below it. So if you create a campaign for the product aware, it’s going to work for product aware people and and the most aware people, but it’s not going to work for solution aware, problem aware or unaware, right. And so but if you create a campaign, a campaign for the unaware segment, it’s going to work for that segment, and every segment above it. So it’s this weird given take like, hey, if we create a campaign for the unaware segment, it is the most difficult to convert, it’s going to require the most amount of chops. But it gives us the most amount of scalability, because it’s going to work for that segment, which is huge plus every segment above it, if we only target, let’s say, most aware, which is our customer base, right? It’s going to be infinitely easier to convert those people. But the volume of sales that we can generate is going to be infinitely smaller, because it’s only going to work for that segment. And that segment is already small. And so does that make sense?

Jeremy Weisz  39:42

Totally. Yeah. And we were talking before we hit record about I was asking what’s Top of Mind we were talking about economics of customer acquisition, front end campaigns and then approach to front end. I think it kind of applies to that mindset of what is the approach the front end talk about your Thinking around that approach to the front end offer. Yeah, so

Todd Brown  40:04

let’s take a step back for one second, make sure everybody understands. So front end and back end front end is all the marketing that we do with prospects, people that have not participated in at least one transaction. And the aim of the front end is maximum customer client acquisition at a reasonable cost, which we’re going to come back to. So the front end is all about producing that first transaction, it’s the single most expensive and most difficult part of every direct response driven business, the back end is all the marketing that we do with existing clients or buyers, the back end is all about producing the second, third, fourth, fifth, and so on transactions, and the back end is all about delivering more value, and growing lifetime value. In other words, the back end is the real business that we’re in the back end is where all the profit is made in a direct response driven business, the front end is just about maximum customer acquisition at a reasonable at a reasonable cost. So prior or earlier, when I said Top of Mind, for me, what I’ve been thinking about lately, talking a lot to my own team about and our clients and students lately is engineering front end campaigns and the economics of front end campaigns. What I meant was this, that, and I’m gonna say this rapidly. And so what I mean is this number one is, it’s important for everybody to recognize that when you’re an entrepreneur, you’re an investor, and you are investing in the acquisition of assets, those assets are your buyers, your clients, your customers, your patients, right, those assets, just like any other asset, just like whether it’s fine art, whether it’s an equity, whether it’s real estate, those assets have a value today, they have a few right, what that value today is the money that they spend with you the day that they become a client, buyer, patient, etc. They have a future value, which is based on our back end, right? Like their second transaction, third, fourth, fifth, when they buy bagels, again from you, and then again from you, and again from you or whatever. And then there is a cost to acquire that asset, just like there’s a cost to acquire fine art and there’s a value to that fine art today. And then there’s this speculation of that fine art being worth more there’s there is a stock, right, there’s a price per share, that’s what it’s going to cost us to get it right, the value of that person, you know, stock per share is the value that we now have in our account. And then we’re basing right the future value on speculation, what we believe it’s going to go up to the beauty in direct response is that we don’t have to speculate on future value, we make decisions based on average buyer. So over time, as you as a business becomes more mature, and is around longer, we’re able to determine what is the future value of a buyer, what’s the one month value two month, three month, five month, nine month, 12 month, and so on. So we know on average, just like Netflix knows, on average, when somebody subscribes how long they’re gonna stay, some stay a lot longer, some stay a lot shorter, but they know that there is an is an average, well, so I’m sharing all that because the whole game really comes down to understanding that you’re just an investor. And it comes down to understanding that he or she and Dan Kennedy said this many moons ago. But I’m going to translate this into why this has been top of mind for me and something that I’ve been talking about lately. Dan Kennedy said which is absolutely spot on. He said that the entrepreneur that can spend the most to acquire a new buyer wins. And that is absolutely right. It’s the antithesis of the way the typical mom and pop entrepreneur operate. Typical mom and pop view marketing advertising as an expense, it’s a line item on a p&l as as it as as if it was an expense, like the internet, the electric whatever is. But the reality is, is that the game is not how can we spend less than less to acquire customers? The game is how can we spend more and more to acquire customers? How can we afford to spend double what it is that we’re spending right now to acquire a single customer, because the more money that you can invest to acquire a single customer, the easier the game becomes, right, the easier the game becomes. And the more of an advantage you have. if let’s say we could spend $300 to acquire a customer and one of our competitors could only spend 50 bucks to acquire that same customer. They’re done. They’re done. We’re gonna crush them. Because we can do things they can’t do. We can use traffic sources they can’t use, we can invest money to send things in the mail that they can invest. We could have campaigns that are converting a third as well as their campaigns are converting and it still works for us economically, and so on. So the game is really thinking about and figuring out how can you afford to spend more And more to acquire a buyer. And what that comes down to is, how do I make the buyer worth more to us spend more the day that they become a buyer? And how do I increase their future value? How do I get them to spend more more often in the future, because as the value of a buyer goes up, the more money you have to invest to acquire a buyer. And so that’s the first point that I want to make. The second point is to recognize that the whole game of front end of front end acquisition of acquisition is a game of economics, meaning it’s not a game of sales conversion rate. People talk about right like, you know, I got an 8% sales conversion rate. The reality is this, depending on the economics of the campaign, depending on what right what your what it’s costing you to get a visitor, depending on, you know, the the average order value or the average transaction value, right, like the reality is you could have an 8% sales conversion rate, you could have a 10% sales conversion rate and be losing money, every single sale, you could also have a half a percent sales conversion rate and be banking massive money, every single sale. At the end of the day sales conversion rate is just a performance metric. It just tells us how well a particular page or stage of the marketing campaign is performing. But what it doesn’t tell you is whether a front end campaign is viable or not viable, meaning I can continue to run it at scale to acquire more and more buyers. And so the game is not one of sales conversion rate. It The game is one of a financial exchange. What I mean by that is this there are two numbers that are the most important numbers in all of direct response marketing when it comes to customer acquisition and generating buyers at scale. Those two numbers are one CPA cost per acquisition, how much does it cost you to acquire a new buyer. So you spend 1000 bucks or invest 1000 bucks in Facebook ads, you get 10 new buyers that $1,000 divided by 10 buyers tells you we have a cost per acquisition of 100 bucks, it costs us $100 to acquire each of those 10 new buyers, that CPA, that’s the cost side, people will usually say to me like Todd is a is $100 CPA good. Well, I don’t know, I can’t tell you until we have the other side of the equation. a CPA of 100 of cost to acquire the asset of $100 may be good if let’s say every new buyer spends 300 bucks with you, but it’s not good if every buyer spends $3 with you, right and so it all depends we need both sides of the equation on the other side of the equation. So CPA on the cost side, on the value side we have a Lv Lv is average order value. That’s the average amount of money that a buyer spends the day they become a buyer with you. So if you’ve got these campaigns like you had mentioned, you know, you go through campaigns that have upsells downsells bombs, all that kind of stuff. Well some people just buy the core offer. Some people buy the core offer and the bump, some people buy the core offer the bump and upsell number one, some people buy everything, there is an average in direct response we deal with averages and so we look at well we generated 10 buyers, and let’s say we generated a total of 1000 bucks, right some of those people spent maybe 150 some of those people maybe spend 50 right the you know, we generated a total of 1000 bucks. And so in that instance we generated 1000 bucks we got 10 buyers 1000 bucks divided by 10 buyers tells us we have an average order value of 100. We also said that we have a cost per acquisition of 100 right so it costs us $100 to acquire a buyer each buyer was worth on average $100 not to the mom and pop that’s a terrible that’s a terrible transaction. right because it’s well we’re how do we make money because they don’t realize they don’t understand the difference between front end and back end to us in the know to your listeners, your viewers that should be looked at viewed as a Grand Slam home run because you just acquired the single most valuable asset in your business for free. You acquired buyers at no cost your bank account is no less today than it was five days ago. You have the same amount of money in your bank account only now you have the most valuable asset in your business you got 10 new buyers that you are that now going to put into your back end. Now you’ll notice I said that should be viewed as a Grand Slam home run you’re acquiring buyers for free. You think about you ask people out of this context. You say if I can give you 1000 new buyers buyers not leads not prospects buyers on your list for free at no cost to you. Would that be valuable? It say of course it would. sure I’d love to have access to 1000 new buyers. That’s what we’re talking about here. Right? We’re just talking about a financial exchange. 1000 goes out 1000 comes back comes back along with in this case 10 new 10 new buyers and so what you’ll notice is that I didn’t say anything about sales conversion rate, I don’t care what the sales conversion rate is in that in that transaction, I don’t care whether it’s a half a percent, whether it’s 8%, I don’t really care what I do care. But right, because I can’t deposit sales conversion rate, what I do care about is that I spent 100, I made back 100, and I got a customer, I spent 100, I made back 100, and I got a customer, I’ll do that all day, every day, regardless of what the sales conversion rate is. And so that’s what I meant when I said that. Now when it comes to the you got to look, you’re an investor, you’re investing in the acquisition of assets, those assets have a value and a future value, those assets have a cost, the name of the game is engineering your campaigns so that the economics work so that the CPA and ao v work, regardless of what the sales conversion rate is, at the end of the day, sometimes you may have to be willing to lower the sales conversion rate to make the economics work. Meaning you might have to you might be running a $10 offer with some upsells and bumps and whatnot. And because of the cost of traffic, which is which you have very little control over right, the marketplace determines the cost of traffic, right? You economically can’t make it work meaning right like you’re if you’re spending $4, to get a visitor to your website, you’re selling a $10 product, it’s going to be very difficult to get to break even on that on that kind of campaign, you might say, but I’m converting 10% You’re still you’re if you’re not able to recoup your ad spend right, then it may, you might not want to go negative to acquire to acquire buyers, you might have to we might have to say, Hey, you know what, let’s go from 10 bucks to 39 bucks, knowing that our sales conversion rate is going to go from 10%, maybe down to 7%. And now let’s look at the numbers. Because at the end of the day, right? I don’t care if the sales conversion rate is sky high. If those numbers CPA and ABV don’t work, you do not have a viable campaign. But yet, if those numbers do work, regardless of what your sales conversion rate is, regardless of how low it is, you do have a viable campaign. Makes sense.

Jeremy Weisz  51:56

Totally. And I love you know, at the Brian’s event, I don’t it must have been five or six years ago, the Titans event. And I remember listening to Greg rancor talk about proactive and how it was a it was astounding to me, they knew Okay, at month, they would go deep, whatever it was nine months, they spent nine months they knew month 10 they would, you know, obviously be profit because they knew the lifetime value. But they’d spend nine months of that customer in the negative just because they knew those numbers, and they knew the lifetime value of those customers. And

Todd Brown  52:33

it was already very common. Very, very common, I’ll tell you that most of the biggest, fastest growing direct response companies and marketers and marketers go negative on the front, right, like another word. So we go negative on the front on the majority of our campaigns because it allows us to acquire more buyers. In other words, right? Like, um, you know, the the reality is is that, you know, is that it just allows you to be more aggressive. And so when you recognize that you’re acquiring assets, and those assets have a future value, and you know what that future value is because you’ve got your tracking and metrics and dashboards in place. And you understand the numbers, the arithmetic of direct response, direct response and investing, well, then it’s just like any other investment, right? Like, look, if you acquire a buyer, and that buyer is worth 100 bucks today, but the average buyer goes on to spend another $1,000 with you another 100 bucks a month, every month for the next 10 months. Well now what are you willing to invest to get that $100 buyer, maybe you’re willing to invest? 100, right, maybe you’re willing to invest 120, to get that $100 buyer even though you’re going negative $20. But you know, in 30 days from now you’re going to recoup that 20 plus another 80. Right. And so knowing that, and again, this is important for everybody to understand, knowing that look, if I go if I say hey, you know what, I could spend 100 bucks to get a new a new buyer because they spent 100 bucks with me and so on day one, and so I break even and then they go on to spend 100 bucks a month, every month for the next next 10 months. But you know what, if I go to 120, now I have an additional $20 that I can invest in us to get to get buyers. Now my marketing can perform even worse in terms of conversion rate, right? Like if I was willing to go from 100 to $200, because I know my metrics and I’ve got the cash flow to flow. Now legitimately I could run the same campaign at half the conversion rate that it’s at right now. And it’ll still work for me. And so the point is that you not only the more that you’re willing to invest to get a buyer not only does it do you put yourself in a position where you can do things that your competitors can’t do. You could also use less effective marketing and it still works because at the end of the day, we’re not we’re not playing a game of conversion rate we’re playing a game of financial exchange right and so when people say like you know like you know I want an 8% sales conversion rate that’s cool me I just want like I just want for every dollar that I put out there I just want a certain amount of money back it might be I just want 80 cents back and I don’t care whether it’s half a percent sales conversion 2% right like when you have a business and your business let’s just say whatever for argument’s sake does 10 million a year let’s just say it does you know you you acquire you know, 30,000 new buyers every year let’s just say no one asked you what was your sales conversion rate on those 30,000 buyers unless they’re a novice new marketer at the end of the day it doesn’t matter what matters is what it costs you to acquire those buyers and what were those buyers worth to you? Right That’s what matters

Jeremy Weisz  55:45

totally. Todd First of all, thank you I want to point people last thing I want to point people to And if you have a minute or two just explain a little bit about the E5 Method and what people can can find in the book and with the methodology

Todd Brown  56:04

yeah awesome and so I’ll make this quick and so the E5 Method is really a process that that allows a reliable consistent process for engineering effective front end campaigns that you can use to acquire buyers clients patients at scale from paid traffic so it is a way to create the right idea angle hook messaging argument and offer to be able to roll out a campaign to cold traffic using paid ads to scale your business your new your new customers and so that’s what’s covered in the in the book the book I think is about 300 pages 330 something like that. And then on that page, there’s a whole bunch of bonus trainings that folks will get immediate access to if they’re interested while they’re waiting for the book to get shipped and so um yeah and I probably did it I did a gross disservice in that explanation of the five methods but I’ll let people enjoy the

Jeremy Weisz  57:09

what is a fan favorite of what either in the bundle or in the book when people tell you talk to you about it after the fact

Todd Brown  57:18

I mean everybody raves about the on the bonuses but I think the book is it’s not your typical Lake wall look I believe there is at least one call to action in the book to go learn more about our E5 coaching program the book is stacked and so it it will I think give it was it’s really it’ll give a high pause to how do you find the right hook and angle for your marketing campaign How do you tap into the right emotion that drives your prospects to buy How do you differentiate your your product or service and identify unique mechanisms so it stands out is something not only different but superior? How do you you know what’s the one belief that you need your prospects to have before you introduce your offer? How do you construct the offer and then present the offer like it’s just the book is what people really love the most but like I said while you’re waiting for the book you’ll get immediate access to the to the goodies

Jeremy Weisz  58:21

and then Todd What are other ways people can engage with you like services or product wise because I know you have the coaching program I believe you’re a mastermind i’ve you know I think Greg rillette has raved about you David long as raised about you I’ve had on the podcast

Todd Brown  58:38

how afraid guys those guys are easy to please because they’re super smart super great guys both of those guys. Um, but so we do have a mastermind but that mastermind is really for a certain caliber of of client and so it’s not really for the masses it’s by application only it’s called the top one mastermind um, but I recommend that folks start with the five coaching program and it’s basically it is basically where we will we hold your hand for 10 weeks week by week helping you to create your own create and launch your own e five campaign which is a campaign that you’ll be able to use evergreen perpetually like I said with paid traffic to acquire new buyers folks can learn more about that, I believe if they really want to just leap over the E5 bundle at I think it’s, you’ll speak to somebody on the team. They’ll see if it’s the right fit for you. they’ll explain how the program works. If that’s what you’re interested in, or

Jeremy Weisz  59:39

just go to buy it and you’ll probably find out about it down the road now. Todd, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I mean, I was taking copious notes three pages here

Todd Brown  59:50

so you were supposed to keep me on track.

Jeremy Weisz  59:52

You thought we were on track.

Todd Brown  59:54

I hope I hope I hope I didn’t you know at one point I was like oh my gosh, okay, sorry. It’s really fantastic you can I just want to make sure okay thank

Jeremy Weisz  1:00:02

you everyone check out more episodes check out