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Jeremy Weisz 3:44

There’s worse places. Oh, yeah.

Danny Gavin 3:47

Exactly. So yeah. It’s crazy that they ended up here. And like, I always put myself in their shoes, like literally going halfway across the world not knowing what to expect. It’s just It’s mind boggling. I don’t know how people do it.

Jeremy Weisz 4:00

It is, you know, I guess they just want a better life. And so take me on the journey a little bit. Diamonds, to Rabbi to MBA.

Danny Gavin 4:10

Cool. So my family has been in the diamond industry for six generations. I would say diamonds kind of saved us from lead for me being here today. Because my great grandfather Baron died. He was a diamond cutter, and many in his family in Amsterdam. And in the 1930s, he had an opportunity to go down to South Africa in order to teach people how to cut. And while he went down to South Africa, in Cape Town, you know, 70 of his family in Amsterdam, were all you know, killed in the Holocaust. But he was there. And long story short, you know, like my grandfather got married to my grandmother, which was barns daughter, he also got into the business my dad got into the business. And when when my dad came over to America, he was in hold Sell diamonds. And when he got to the late when it got to the late 90s. My mom and dad were both very instrumental, just in general thinking of new things. They saw the internet coming and actually launched their first e commerce site in 1999. Which is pretty cool. Very, very early on. Actually, there’s a whole story, I thought, I think you’d like this their first I think online sale was a lawyer in Chicago, actually. And he was like, How do I how do I know that this is going to happen? So he’s like, I’m gonna write up this bet on pretty risky,

Jeremy Weisz 5:36

especially a bad time to buy a diamond. I mean, people were hesitating, buying a t shirt, let alone diamonds,

Danny Gavin 5:44

right? Even people now will buy diamonds online. But the idea is, so he’s like, I’m gonna create this contract. And, you know, I’ll spend my time doing it, and you guys can use it in the future with your other customers. But yeah, so that that’s pretty funny. And, you know, I myself, like seventh and eighth grade, we’re talking, you know, that.

Jeremy Weisz 6:02

Oh, right. So, um, so. So,

Danny Gavin 6:05

I mean, obviously, in 99, I was in eighth grade. So I, I only got I got involved in the company later, like in 2010. So there’s a lot that happened before me. But yes, I was definitely involved in the family business later on. And yeah, so like to connect to the rabbi part. So you know, I’m an Orthodox Jew. And so in sort of, in my circles, it’s very common, that your early years, especially your college years, don’t necessarily go to university to find yourself but to go to yeshiva to find yourself and basically set up the foundation for the rest of your life, as do the fact that Judaism is a big part of my life. So it’s sort of like setting up what a big part of your life is going to be. And part of that is rabbinical ordination. So that’s something that I did and really enjoyed actually got my ordination back in South Africa. So I went back there for two years. And it was absolutely wonderful because I got to spend time with my grandparents and it was awesome. But yeah, once I got my ordination, it was like, Okay, I don’t want to make money off of religion. So what’s next? So that’s where I had some really good mentors in my life. And you spoke about Jay Steinfeld but so one of jays, main guys who helped him get to where he was, is a fellow called Daniel Cotlar, but you definitely should bring him on the podcast if you haven’t already. And Daniel’s like, similar guy, similar background with three Shiva. You know, afterwards, he, he got his MBA from Rice University, and so on and so forth a wonderful career. But he was someone I always looked up to, and I’m like, Okay, I’m leaving Shiva, similar concept. Let me go get my MBA, so I couldn’t get into Rice University. But I got into the University of Houston. And that was sort of my pathway into like, I would say, the real world. But yeah, I’ll stop there.

Jeremy Weisz 7:53

If Why not diamonds. I mean, there’s like, the reason I find this interesting is because especially in this world that we live in, there’s a lot of career changes, you know, and you kind of have these options and opportunities and follow these paths, but it kind of bleeds in different directions. So I’m wondering, at that point, you could say, Listen, I’m gonna go to the family business, I’m going to go into diamonds. I’m not saying it’s easy path, but it’s a, you know, it’s there. Why did you decide not to? And again, I could see how an MBA in business applies to that, to that. So why didn’t you decide to go that route?

Danny Gavin 8:27

I guess, number one, education is really important to me, especially back then, you know, I think there’s always, you know, not everyone’s like this, but I don’t know, I just wanted to kind of build my own experiences and see what I wanted to do. And it happens to be that when I graduated in 2010, like you think you get an MBA, and you get, you’re going to get this job at a big corporation and six figure salary. And to me that was like, it’s like, making it like, I’m going to be in like Exxon Mobil shell, you know, and it never happened. So when I when I left, you know, when after I got my MBA, so, so two things, and then we can kind of go back, but so I actually ended up going into the family business, right. But on the side, with help of like people like Jay Steinfeld, who you mentioned, started building my consultancy and my digital marketing. So I was very, I don’t want to say privileged, but the fact that I could work in in the family business and my parents seeing like, you know, this is not like, we want to give you the freedom to also explore other things. So I was able to kind of play both worlds a little bit in the beginning. So yeah, that’s kind of how it start

Jeremy Weisz 9:33

how to j then play into your roles agency.

Danny Gavin 9:37

Sure. So while I was in, so while I was studying my MBA, there’s a it’s really important to get a good internship between your first and second years, it’s known. So I was looking for something and I was speaking to Daniel right. Daniel was the CMO at blinds at the time. And Daniel’s like, you know, hey, you know, we’re looking for some help competitive research. Things like that, I would love to bring you on as an intern a summer intern at And at that time, you know, they were on top, you know, on top of like a strip mall, not as big as they were. But it was a wonderful opportunity. I was there for three months, and really got to learn all the different parts of the marketing department, and also added value as well. But my main deliverable was an in depth competitive insight research report between all the competitors and And I got to present that to Jay directly the CEO at the time, and it’s cool, because like your little 20 year old intern, and you don’t necessarily have, you know, it’s like, I could have just been there doing nothing. But the cool part about Jay is he really cared about everyone, and even like the intern who’s was there just every couple months, and I guess we just clicked and honestly, like, after, you know, you know, I really wanted a job there full time, but it didn’t work out. But that’s fine. And so, you know, a couple of months later, Jay starts sending people my way, like people speak to Jay Jay, you know, you’re in the mark, you’re in the marketing, you’re neat, calm, like who can someone help me? And Jay was like, I know, this really cool young guy, Danny, Gavin, you know, you should check him out. And the crazy thing is, I got a lead from Jay a couple months ago. So we’re talking about 10 12 years later, Jay still send people my way. And so that was a wonderful relationship that we created just from an internship, you know,

Jeremy Weisz 11:20

what was the evolution of your services? When you know, what you were doing, then? is probably a little bit different from what you’re doing now?

Danny Gavin 11:28

Oh, yeah. So back then, I was a single man consultancy. And really helping people. You know, with little website projects. As I was getting more into SEO, kind of, you know, SEO, I was also focusing on some analytics integrations, getting people to understand analytics better. So that was dead right? Now, when we fast forward 12 years later, we’re talking about a full on digital marketing agency, with between full and, you know, contractors, almost 20 people. So it’s like, it’s a different world. Right. So now, I’m not necessarily the one who’s doing the work. Now, there are still projects and things that I do personally. But now it’s more about how am I building a business, growing people in their careers and, you know, handling this crazy machine?

Jeremy Weisz 12:23

You know, Danny, we were talking before we hit record about some of the things that are top of mind, one of which is the agency growing agency, scaling agency for agency owners listening, what are some of the things that you have found, have been helpful as far as scaling and growing your agency?

Danny Gavin 12:40

Sure. So first one would be delegation. And I know that that’s like, obvious, but it’s not it, man, it’s so hard when you’re in the chair. And you’re so used to doing things like the bookkeeping, and actually being in client meetings, and things like that, it’s so difficult to see a world where someone else is doing it. And when you figure that out, and like jump, that’s how you can start to grow. As a part of that is a realization that when you do hand something off, it’s never going to be 100% the way that you want it. And kind of understanding, it will be 80%. Right? But sometimes 80% is enough. And that’s how you’re going to grow and make more room to do things. So I know it sounds like an easy thing. But man, when you’re sitting in the chair and say like what I like there’s no way someone else can do this. I’m having that. That hard time now for even my employees. Because think about it as people go up in organization, they also need to delegate. And that’s kind of how we get successful. And it’s hard. Like it’s taking one of my you know, my guy, the head of paid social, to do some serious delegation. It’s taken a couple months to feel comfortable just to do head off things that only he could do it, at least in his mind. I’m the only one who could do it.

Jeremy Weisz 13:55

Yeah, I’m gonna ask you about how do you help them flex that muscle of delegation, but what was the hardest thing for you to relinquish? You know, like, I’m never gonna hand this off, and then you end up

Danny Gavin 14:07

doing it. Ooh, you know, it’s funny. I’m going to change that question a bit. But like, what one of the hardest things to relinquish that I haven’t done yet. I’m still doing the bookkeeping. And I know that sounds crazy. And I was on a call yesterday with a CFO because I’m right on the chopping CFOs because I’m looking for some, you know, additional insights and things. And he’s like, what’s your running that type of company and you’re doing that? So even me I’ve got things to to work on. But I would say client meetings because to me, it was like, the only way we could be successful is if I’m in every meeting, and I’m the face because when they signed up, they want Danny Gavin right? And if I’m not there, how’s it gonna work out? But honestly, that if I Danny Gavin is shouldn’t be an individual to be what I stand for and the quality and if that’s In my team, for like my brothers and sisters, so then it’s the same thing. But to get there very difficult, like literally, like, like ripping off band aids each time like No, Danny, you’re not going to that meeting? No, you’re not going to that.

Jeremy Weisz 15:14

You know, Danny, I was talking with a friend Duncan, only who runs fire fire belly marketing about this exact same topic yesterday and we were talking about this, how do you help staff who are used to doing the work and as they move up in the ranks need to delegate flex that delegation muscle? What do you do with that that person, like you were mentioning is like, Okay, I know you used to run this. Now it’s time to manage and have some leadership.

Danny Gavin 15:45

So I would say three things. Number one is you have to lead by example, right? If I’m not doing it, then why should they do it? I mean, that’s with everything. So it’s hard to be on the top. But that’s number one. Number two, sometimes you need to get them help, which is like, whether it’s a mentorship or coaching, just to help them work through it. And sometimes it’s good to have like a third party, not you. Because that way, it’s not like personal that’s from a just objective perspective. You know, everyone needs coaches in their lives. And sometimes that can help. And the third thing is just like, it’s like, it’s like an equation, like, you only have this amount of time. We’ve got more projects coming in. We can’t split you. So what do we do? And sometimes it’s just kind of click like, okay, I get it like, so. Okay, what can I do? Well, we could fire clients, or we could hand this off to this person or not, you don’t have to hand off the whole project. But you know, there’s like 20 tasks, you can do 10 of them and someone else can do 10. So it kind of just gets to that point. But once again, you can take you can take the horse to the water can’t make him drink. Like, usually what happens, you know, some people get it right away. Others, it’s like, they get so pressed, that the only way to do it is okay, now I realize I’ve got to delegate. So the goal is not to get them to a point where they’re stressed. Like, I don’t want him to like realize, oh, like, now you got to do it. But with some

Jeremy Weisz 17:11

good. It’s, it’s listed as a force function. Right? So I mean, that is one way you can do it actually, as you just, you’re forced to, if you the person has too much that they need to do, then it’s, it’s gonna, it’s gotta happen. Right? So I like that, actually. But um, I want to kind of talk a little bit about a couple cases, we can kind of learn a little bit of what you do and how you think about marketing. And there was one with a plumbing company.

Danny Gavin 17:42

Yeah, so we work with a plumbing call company called mix plumbing. And, you know, it’s funny, most of the leads that we get are referral based, but this one actually came through LinkedIn, for a while had like this kind of like marketplace, where people would send requests and respond, so responded, and we won the business, which was really cool. Kind of like out of the ordinary. And it happened in the middle of COVID 2020. I remember, they really wanted an important person nice meeting, and in like May of 2020, to go into the in person meeting, just but remember, we’re in Texas. So I’m sitting there at the table, I got my mask on, you know, it was just interesting. But yeah, so I’ve been

Jeremy Weisz 18:23

I went to Texas during the middle of pandemic, actually. So it was a little bit different from Chicago put it that way.

Danny Gavin 18:29

much different. Yeah. So they were looking for it, you know, they were working with someone on their SEO and on their website, and I guess it just was kind of stagnant, and they didn’t see what you know where they’re going. And the interesting thing is, is when I was like looking at, like initially looking at the project, they actually ranked really well for a lot of terms. So it’s hard for me sometimes when someone comes to me and says, we’re not happy when I’m looking at like, That’s not that bad, you know. But it’s just an interesting point. But, but past that they had a website that was HTML based, they couldn’t, there was no CMS, there was no way for them to actually update things. And in general, you know, they just wanted to increase their business. So in this specific scenario, we wanted to convert their website into a WordPress website. But with me, site migrations are always so crazy. And it’s funny, a lot of people come to me for it. But the reason for that is, is that, like, yes, it’s a bad website, but you know what, it, it helped you accomplish all this. So now to take this, uproot it, rebuild it. And, you know, the big thing of why people come to us is SEO migration, how do we take that value that that website has and move it over to this new one? It’s always like, it’s so risky. I’m always very conservative in those cases where it’s like, maybe you shouldn’t right, but in this case, we didn’t have a choice. We had to move it because for their business needs. And thank God we were able to To build a new website, transfer over all that equity that they had, and over time with additional SEO efforts, and now we do a whole bunch of things for them, we do paid search. And we were able to literally double their leads. They’re extremely happy. And they’re like one of my largest clients, just solely going through building relationships, doing things well. And showing results.

Jeremy Weisz 20:29

You mentioned, you know, site migration, there’s a lot of things that can go wrong. And maybe things that people don’t think about what is a big mistake people do make that you see when they because you may take over something after someone’s already built a site and migrated it. What are some big mistakes people make with that? That site migration?

Danny Gavin 20:47

Yeah, great, great question. So the easy one, like the first one is you when you’re going to migrate a site, usually the URL structures are going to change. Not always right, but often they will. And you may remove pages. So number one, it’s so important that you set up redirects, and where if someone visits the old URL, they automatically get transferred to the new page. So that’s extremely important. Because imagine you have all this equity built up on these pages. And if suddenly, they disappear, and you haven’t transferred that over, I think that it’s like a pipe, it’s sort of like, you have all this water coming into your house. Imagine taking a chainsaw cutting that off right before it gets to the house, that water’s not getting into the house, it’s literally going on the floor all over the place. And that’s the idea. So that’s really number one. Number two would be some of the structural elements, like header tags, or text on images. These are things you don’t think about, where maybe the content is exactly the same. But the way that the tagging is set up on the back end is different, that suddenly changes exactly how the site looks. So that’s number two. And then I would add a third point, when it comes to migrations is linking. When you go ahead, and you’re changing the structure, and it let’s say there used to be a link to this page from the homepage. And there used to be internal linking is an extremely important part of SEO, that helps Google number one, understand the value of the pages to you, right, because if in your own website you have nor links to a page, they understand that’s more important. And also the use of anchor text, the actual text that you use, for those links gives Google a better idea of what page is about. So if you mess with that internal linking structure, even with everything else being okay, that can also cause major issues. IE,

Jeremy Weisz 22:48

I want to you know, that’s a b2c example, I want to talk about b2b example. And this is a really interesting company with BrainCheck.

Danny Gavin 22:57

Yeah, so brain check is a really cool startup. They came up the or sort of developed a software based on an iPad to where they had like a baseline of normal, let’s say, brain function. And then as you take these games or tests, they’re able to tell how far off you are. Originally, I think they created it for concussions. So imagine like there’s, you know, a kid at school, he’s playing football and he gets hit, we don’t know if is he concussed or not pull him to the side, you know, quickly take the test and see if there’s a problem. That kind of moves more into figuring out better diagnosing dementia and Alzheimer’s for older people. And that’s kind of where they have more gone, they’ve done great big tests with big hospital systems. And thank god, they’re doing very well. But they’re there. So why they come to us was obviously to build up their leads. Now, typically, when you talk about the healthcare and medical system, you look at pharmaceutical reps is a good example, right? Pfizer reps my, my father in law’s a doctor, and I know my wife is a kid, she grew up with all these like cool, free, things like that the reps would come over, and you know, and bring all these free, you know, swag. So that’s typically how you think selling to doctors is like literally going door to door. So coming along and saying, No, the way we’re going to reach doctors is through digital marketing. Both you know, and remember, there’s two types of digital marketing. There’s digital marketing, where people are proactively looking for things. And then there’s also then there’s second interrupting people where it’s like, okay, I know you’d be very interesting this product, but you’re not necessarily looking for it. So to go to that extreme now, where they’re not even looking for it, but to introduce them to the concept and start to open their eyes and actually sell to them pretty crazy, right? But that’s why they came to us to create a marketing funnel or a system to get more leads and to get doctors who were interested in the product.

Jeremy Weisz 24:59

You know, Danny, one of the things you have to do with your clients is you really have to identify who is their ideal avatar, because you’re spending a lot of time energy and money to target these. You know, I guess personas, right? So talk to me about the process of with brain check specifically, who are you looking because I can see this going in a million different directions, like you could say, family practitioner, as well. Dementia clinics hospital. So talk about your discovery process and how you break down because I think this is important for any business to really identify who are their ideal clients? How do you walk a company like that through this exercise? And come out the other side with because at some point, you got to focus on someone?

Danny Gavin 25:51

Yeah. And I’m going to take it one step further. But especially in b2b, where there’s not always one buyer, right? There’s more than one decision maker, you even have to think even more. But yeah, but the idea is, so when we talk about customer persona, or avatar building, one has to sit down and think about who who are we selling to? And like in this case, is that the doctor themselves is that the practice manager? If it’s a hospital system, there may be additional layers of certain things, or who can decide who’s going to pay for what, like a purchasing department, maybe even have to consider it, right? Like, if this is an actual it thing, do they need to know about it as well. And when you sit down, and you sort of create love those people and like in marketing, in marketing 101 When we like create avatars, we always make like these cool names like Dr. Danny, or purchasing Pam, things to kind of remember remember of who the different avatars are, and you figure out like, how old they are, what they like, what do they read? What what speaks to them, like, what are their problems? What are you trying to solve, and when you create these personas, then you have an idea of who they are, and how they tick. And now you literally I think of it as like, have that paper in front of you. And then as you go write the blog post, or you create the campaign, you’re really looking at them and thinking about them, and then what you’re going to try to to accomplish. Okay, so this is exactly what I’m looking for. Alright, let’s see, how can I target them? Or when I write an article, What angle do I need to take? What you know, what’s actually bothering the doctor rather than what’s bothering the purchasing? Manager. So. So that’s really how, like the foundation before you start marketing is like that customer persona development. And like I said, what’s really important specifically, in the case of b2b, when you have multiple decision makers, you have to realize who are the ones that have to target and the messaging may be a little bit different, right. But what the doctor is looking for isn’t necessarily what the purchasing managers are for the practice manager, right? You know, the doctor might be more like, okay, how can I serve people better? The practice matters, like, Okay, how do I make more money? Like, how can I reimburse? How can I get reimbursed by insurance more by using this thing, and then that’s going to be what your ads are different, right? How one ad is about a guide, a reimbursement guide, the guide to reimbursing for, you know, whatever, and how you could create a additional $100,000 in your practice. And for the doctor, it might be, you know, the latest tool, which really have helped people, you know, to better or case

Jeremy Weisz 28:33

there may be an IT person that is like, well, how are we going to integrate this? You know, you see back to back patients all day, how are we going to make this easy and integrate it in the practice? Exactly. You got it. Um, you know, thanks for having that conversation, because I think is one of the most important things anyone could do in their business. I talk people who have a hard enough time niching down, let alone identifying a specific avatar. So I appreciate you going into that. And what’s interesting, you have the ODEO Academy, and you start I don’t know if it’s still this way, but you start off with a really unique niche. I don’t know if you meant to do this, but But talk about

Danny Gavin 29:13

Yeah, so coming with ODEO Academy. It was like, you know, another digital marketing course. So because there’s tons out there and there’s free ones out there, right. So obviously, there’s reasons why you want to come to mind anyone to pay me for it, and it’s really good. But you know what it was, I found someone who runs a very, very profitable course. And she teaches people how to copyright and it’s called copy copy tribe. Her name is Michal Eisikowitz she’s also good person to interview

Jeremy Weisz 29:46

and I was sitting with her copywriters on the podcast so yeah,

Danny Gavin 29:49

super so with me hot like literally sitting sitting down with her and just to get ideas about the course actually paid her for a time to sit down. And man like she reaches out, her main target is Orthodox Jewish women. And I’m like, wow, that that’s a, that’s a really good idea like, because when you think about it, when we talk about digital marketing, and especially now, it’s such a, there’s so many avenues, you could be a freelancer, you could work for an agency, you can work from home. In digital marketing itself, there’s more analytical things, there’s more creative side. So it just, it felt perfect for someone who often has to provide second income, but also has children and need something sometimes a lot of children, right, sometimes a lot of children, and to kind of have a career and something that they’re going to be good at. And so many of these ladies are so smart. It’s like, Man, this makes sense. So for those who aren’t familiar for the, you know, Orthodox Jewish world, in general, and it’s not for everyone, but for a lot of people, like being in a mixed classroom would be a little bit uncomfortable. So to go ahead and create a woman recoding gender, I meant by gender, gender, yes. So, so to have a women’s only cohort for them is a lot more comfortable, and not strange, you know, a foreign environment. And that’s really the niche that we went down in. And it’s worked tremendous.

Jeremy Weisz 31:24

So I want to unpack this for a second, okay, because she said, Orthodox Jewish women, and you said, This is great. So I want to understand why you said that, because I think people have problems niching down in general, when I think of that, some people may say, well, listen, Jewish, you are 1% of the population. Now we’re talking about Orthodox Jewish people. And now we’re talking about half of that, which is women, do you want to give me a smaller segment to really market to hear? So why did you say, Oh, that’s a good idea.

Danny Gavin 31:54

Cool. So first of all, looking at myself, right? So I’m Orthodox, and I am a professor at university. So in that culture, I’m already sort of more accepted, right says, Wow, this is a rabbi, he’s religious, but he’s also very educated. So naturally, I’ve got more of an affinity to that audience. And that audience can can appreciate me. In addition, and I know this sounds kind of funny. But in order to get to that audience, I it I can get to them a little bit differently, I can actually put an ad in a paper magazine, right in a magazine itself, and people are going to be reading that magazine and see that ad and be interested. So I don’t know, it’s just, it’s different. It just felt like it felt like it could work.

Jeremy Weisz 32:44

And I mean, a lot of companies I asked that just to poke it a little bit, but it’s, um, but a lot of really successful companies start off with a small niche, like I interviewed the founder of our Rx bar, right. Now, they started in like a very in the CrossFit community. And then they had rabid fans, then it grew from there. So there’s a lot of companies and this is, you know, your course isn’t a mass market product. But it is, I think one of the selling points of your course, is not just the information, but some people have actually gotten jobs like it’s going out and actually applying to jobs.

Danny Gavin 33:20

Right. Yeah, exactly. The goal is like, it’s funny, because one of my students said, Danny, your courses like Netflix, right? Like, I can’t wait to watch the next video, which is really cool. But yeah, like, I it’s not just about watching a bunch of videos, but it’s actually we have homework assignments. So you actually have to take what you learned and apply it, that homework assignment is graded, we give you feedback. And then at the end of the course, we have a final project where you are required to take everything that you learned and actually apply it to real life business. So you create a portfolio that you can, like you said, actually get a job. So I Yes, it’s only 15 weeks, but I try to stick in like a years of experience into that. So yes, if someone’s expecting to hire a five years of experience, that’s not going to be one of my students. But if someone’s looking for smart entry level, who’s got some good experience, these, you know, my students are right for the picking, talk about selling

Jeremy Weisz 34:18

the course, right, having a course people think it’s, you know, you build it, and they will come which is not the case and selling the course where there’s, you know, there’s features and benefits. And, you know, there’s obviously features to the courses you have, but you do a good job, I think because I listened to a couple other videos where you’re talking about the course selling the benefits of it. So when you went out to market to sell this thing and fill this thing, what did you do?

Danny Gavin 34:48

So obviously, I would say there is a primary event that usually occurs which is like a webinar at that webinar. I’ve invited other people who are let’s like, ideally, if you could do that webinar together with like an influencer, who could bring their own audience, like, that’s great. And then the idea is that in this webinar, I want to teach people about the digital marketing world in general, what is it, what’s available, how much money do you make, and so on, and so forth. And therefore, if you stop there, you’ve just learned a lot about the digital marketing world and these options. And then obviously, I turn that into more, okay, now that you hear this, this is a great way how you can get into it. So that like that event itself, driving people to that event, and then afterwards, following up with them is really important. Because just to go to someone and say, hey, buy a $2,500 course, buy a $3,500 course. That’s hard, right? But if you can get them to more of a soft event, where they learn more about it, and ah, now I see what you’re talking about, and then bring them along, you will be a lot more successful. I mean, when you think about it, just in general with marketing, like we have marketing funnels, right. Most people are at the top aren’t ready to purchase. So how do you move them along the funnel so that they learn more understand, and then they’re ready, because Ah, now I get it, I if I don’t, I’m going to be missing something.

Jeremy Weisz 36:24

Yeah, it’s also the what you’re selling is not an impulse purchase. It’s not like a $99 course, it’s a kind of a done with you type of situation. And one thing that when I was researching this about you, it’s, you do a really good job hitting the pain points and then hitting the results. So you’re hitting the pain points of that. And it goes back to where you really structured in you know, your, your persona of the customer so that you’re speaking to their individual pain points. They may like you said, they want a side income or whatever they you know, whatever they’re looking for, and then you’re giving that result to them specifically with the course. So I love that,

Danny Gavin 37:04

Jeremy to add on to that. So like, so yeah, if you go to the audio Academy website, and you go to the landing page that we created. Exactly. There was a lot of research done to that and, and figuring out and interviewing people and speaking to them, like what they need, and yes, so sometimes you think he’s just slapping up a page. But to create a true page that speaks to someone and then really solves their issues. It takes a lot of time, money and insight to do that. It’s not just like, Okay, let’s create a landing page today.

Jeremy Weisz 37:39

And I was talking to a friend Ian Garlic, you know, who you know, also who introduced us, big shout out to him and his video case story. So if you need a case story for your best customers, contact him. He’s done ours. He’s amazing. He basically introduced you, you do service, you do SEO, you do websites. But he also specifically mentioned LinkedIn. And sometimes LinkedIn is a black box for people doing LinkedIn paid. Talk about some of the mistakes people make when they’re navigating the LinkedIn world in in paid.

Danny Gavin 38:15

Sure. So when it comes to LinkedIn ads, we’re all very aware that the targeting is awesome, right? Because when people on their LinkedIn profile, but so much information, so really, if I’m in a b2b world, and I’m trying to target people, it’s great. But then the problem is, okay, if the targeting is so great, how come when I run LinkedIn ads, the results aren’t great, right? So for a while, it’s a years ago. Another thing was like I’m used to going to Google ads and seeing cost per clicks being $1 to LinkedIn cost per clicks, or five $10. And for some people, that’s, that’s a lot, right. That’s a huge difference. So I feel like that also pushed people away. But the key I would say, for LinkedIn ads were, were like sort of the success lies. Number one is where we found a lot of success is when you’re first reaching out to someone, you have to think about two things. When someone is scrolling on their feed and LinkedIn, they’re, they’re not ready to buy at all. Like, people aren’t on there to try out new services. It’s really about education, entertainment. The next job was inspiration. And therefore, it’s hard as a business we want to sell to people right away. But but in on LinkedIn, especially your first interaction with someone has to be more soft. It’s like dating before you get married. And yes, sometimes that cost more money, right? Oh my gosh, we need to take her out five times that restaurant. What are you talking about? Right, but yes, that’s just how the platform works. So that’s number one.

Jeremy Weisz 39:58

Number two, you driving them to a piece of content instead of or what is your recommendation there?

Danny Gavin 40:06

Yes. So to actually actualize it, we refer to it some sort of collateral. So that could be a case study. It could be a guide, it could be even a video, it could be a webinar and on demand webinar, something where someone is willing to give you their information, their email, their phone number, in exchange for a piece of content that they find that will be valuable and useful. Got it? Yeah. And then the second quick thing is, is that when, for some crazy reason, when you send people away from LinkedIn to a landing page, I don’t know why. It’s just it’s hard for them to fill it out. Those those forms. So LinkedIn has created something called a LinkedIn lead form where the form exists on LinkedIn itself. And the nice thing is that when you fill it out, it’s prefilled, with all your information, and that works really, really well. Now, other people could I know there’s other people seem to don’t use lead forms, because it’s too easy, and maybe they’re not going to be high quality. But honestly, like, what I’ve seen is that when we send people to the landing page, the cost per lead skyrockets. And if you’re don’t now you could do that maybe later on down the funnel, like someone who’s opened your forum, and you know, they’ve read it, and then, you know, then where your messaging is more about selling. That might be okay, but at that first spot, I mean, think about it, your clicks are like $10, when they I would think you

Jeremy Weisz 41:35

want to make it easy. Why do you want to create friction at

Danny Gavin 41:37

that point? I agree with you. But there are lots of people who don’t do it. Yeah.

Jeremy Weisz 41:44

I mean, I guess like you said, it’s all test, right? And you’re like you’re seeing conversions higher with doesn’t matter what you think doesn’t matter what I think it’s matters, what the data says. And exact data is saying, Okay, people are filling it out, and it’s better. That’s what it’s saying. So, um, first of all, Danny, I want to thank you, and I want to point people towards where they can learn more. You know, I know people go to Optidge Learn more about what you do. And where can they check out? ODEO Academy?

Danny Gavin 42:17


Jeremy Weisz 42:19

OdeoAcademy. com. First of all, Danny, any other places, we should point people online to learn more?

Danny Gavin 42:28

Yeah. I’m pretty active on LinkedIn and Twitter. So LinkedIn, you can get to my profile by going to and Twitter. My handle is at Danny Gavin. And we’d love to speak to anyone and help where I can.

Jeremy Weisz 42:44

Awesome. Everyone check it out. Thanks, Danny. Thanks, everyone. Thanks, Jeremy.