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Tim Ash 4:18

Well, Brazil is amazing. This was in Florianopolis, Brazil, which I live in San Diego. They call that the San Diego of Brazil. They have the beach culture, the skate surf culture. And Brazil is just really dynamic. Lots of young people and this was a huge online marketing event. And it was about 12,000 people. So as a first time I had to three foot or three story tall jumbotrons behind me and I came out on the catwalk and this stuff is quite something.

Jeremy Weisz 4:50

What did you talk about?

Tim Ash 4:51

I talked about neuromarketing about how to impact people by understanding our evolution and our psychology. So that’s one of the things that you is at the intersection of the digital marketing and the evolutionary psychology that I’m focused on now.

Jeremy Weisz 5:05

Who’s, who attends that conference? What type of people,

Tim Ash 5:09

online marketers from a wide variety array of industries, from, say, people that are hands on practitioners all the way to executives and companies in Brazil?

Jeremy Weisz 5:20

You were mentioning Tim, some of the other speakers that you enjoyed at that summit also.

Tim Ash 5:25

Yes. Dr. Robert Cialdini was there. He was a big professional crush of mine. And he was actually kind enough to blurb my latest book, he he got his hands on it. And he said, I love it. And so what is

Jeremy Weisz 5:40

it say? What is the blurb say,

Tim Ash 5:41

invaluable insights into human decision-making and behavior?

Jeremy Weisz 5:45

That’s a lot coming from he is if anyone hasn’t checked out Influence? It’s, I mean, the Bible. Yeah. The Bible. Exactly. I probably you probably have also read it, like, more than three times.

Tim Ash 6:01

Absolutely. And he just came out with a new edition Incidentally, of influence completely updated. And a couple of years ago published another great book called Pre-Suasion.

Jeremy Weisz 6:10

You know, we’ll get into kind of your journey a bit, because you have a really interesting journey. You know, that you were computer scientists, you know?

Tim Ash 6:20

Yes, I like to say I’m a recovering technologist.

Jeremy Weisz 6:24

So I’m looking forward to hearing this, this whole journey. But first start off with Why did you write Unleash Your Primal Brain? Wow, that’s

Tim Ash 6:33

a great question. I as you as you mentioned, I’m known for digital marketing, specifically what’s known as conversion rate optimization, or how to make websites more efficient. So I’ve written a couple of best-selling books on that called Landing Page Optimization. They’ve been translated into six languages and sold 50,000 plus copies, which is pretty good for a marketing textbook. And I ran a conference series here in the US, as well as in Europe called conversion conference, it’s now been renamed Digital Growth Unleashed. And that was the first industry wide conference on conversion rate optimization. And also ran for 19 years founded and ran an agency called SiteTuners, which not surprisingly, with that name, was focused on improving website efficiency. So we worked with the Googles, and Nestle’s and Siemens of the world on down then created 1.2 billion in value for our clients that we can document. And the reason I wrote this new book, which is not about marketing, it’s about evolutionary psychology, was really to what’s the best way to put it level the playing field for consumers and individuals, we’re getting slice and dice for our data. There’s all kinds of AI and algorithms that are zeroing in on our slightest behavioral inclinations. And we don’t even know what’s going on. And so what I want to do is shine a light on how the human brain really works, and retrace that arc of evolution so we can figure out where we picked up these bizarre abilities that we have.

Jeremy Weisz 8:12

Yeah, I mean, even with the documentary, Social Dilemma kind of talks a little bit about that, that it’s just kind of, you know, we’re just doing things and we’re being served up different ads or marketing, and we are maybe upon I don’t know, if you have an opinion on that.

Tim Ash 8:28

Yeah. Well, I like to say say that we’re, we’re kind of dandelions blowing in the wind. We think we’re just such rational creatures. And we have freewill when in fact, if if we’re hungry, or tired or different music’s playing in the background of a shopping mall, we’re going to do different things reliably. And so I think that that notion of freewill is something that I’m very much questioning it basically, the brain is there just to help you survive. And it’s doing that on a moment to moment basis, given the local conditions. So essentially, if you set up the right conditions around someone, they’re going to be much more likely to behave in predictable ways.

Jeremy Weisz 9:08

Tim with I want to talk about your journey a little bit with SiteTuners. What made you first start SiteTuner’s This is like when you look in the 90s I don’t even know what websites look like in the 90s. I mean, internet what the internet was like that?

Tim Ash 9:24

Well, iframes were a big deal back then. But yeah, we already had the World Wide Web and browsers started in the mid 90s, and started essentially an incubator. Before We helped them raise their first rounds. were acting CTO on the team and build database driven websites which was being done in the raw back then. And it was very interesting run eventually moved into driving traffic, pay per click traffic running keyword campaigns for companies. And that led us to thinking that the problem wasn’t the traffic. It was about the crappy website. sites and landing pages where that traffic was ending up. And that’s when that whole discipline of conversion rate optimization sort of took off. And that’s what we focused on.

Jeremy Weisz 10:10

Do you remember one of your first big clients that you’re like, wow, this, this client wants us to work on their digital assets?

Tim Ash 10:20

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I American Express flying to New York from San Diego to meet with them. That wasn’t kind of a big deal back in 96.

Jeremy Weisz 10:29

So what did they want from you? Well, they

Tim Ash 10:31

wanted improvements in essentially what they had was a user experience problem. They had a lot of different divisions, here’s the retirement planning, here’s the credit card people. And what they wanted was a unified view of that for the consumer and an online portal. So we were trying to solve the problem of essentially making it user friendly, and actually centered on the needs of the visitors.

Jeremy Weisz 10:55

Yeah, and what were some of the other big lessons in the running the, the agency. And I know, it’s funny, because we were talking before we hit record that the transition from agency to solopreneur, most people go solopreneur, and then form this big agency, like you had. So walk me through some of the big lessons in agency. And then I want to talk about transitioning The other way to solopreneur.

Tim Ash 11:23

Well, I think it’s, I always joke that the second hardest business model in the world is running any kind of professional services firm. The hardest one is doing live events in person events. That’s when I started my conference series that that took it up another level of difficulty, I guess you’d say? The best way to answer this is really, that you have to understand yourself. And here I am in middle age, I like to think I have a little better handle on that. But my highest and best use on the planet wasn’t running a professional services firm. You mentioned Michael Gerber and the E Myth. I had my entrepreneurial moment of insanity. You thinking, yeah, I can do this better than my, my boss, I’m just gonna start my own thing. So I took down 2000 square feet, an internet connection, a desk and computer. And I called my girlfriend at the time, he said, Hey, I’m running around the office naked. You know why? Because I can. It’s my company. So that’s how it started. And it was an exciting time, certainly. But I thought I was getting rid of bad bosses at big companies. In fact, I started hiring them. Every new client is your boss. And it’s sort of like getting married before going on a first date. They’re like, Oh, wait, you’re insane. I just didn’t know what flavor of insane we’re talking about based on your corporate culture. So you have to manage employees, you have to manage client expectations, a lot of moving parts. So it wasn’t what gave me juice, I guess you could say?

Jeremy Weisz 12:55

Yeah, I mean, you did it for

Tim Ash 12:58

almost a couple decades. I’m more stubborn than most. So I started in 95, and sold the agency a couple of years ago.

Jeremy Weisz 13:06

What was what made you decide to finally sell?

Tim Ash 13:11

Hmm? Well, it goes back to that self knowledge. I sold it to business partners, by the way, the who are much better suited to running the agency. And they’ve tripled the size of it since I left two years ago. So that tells you something about alignment with your life purpose. But I guess I was looking at myself, my mom had died a little before that. And I was thinking, what do I do with the remaining time on the planet. And so having a clearer sense of mission and purpose is something that that moved me to do that I went through a fantastic weekend initiation through this international organization called the ManKind Project. And as part of that I recommitted to a new mission statement, mine happens to be, I co create a world of peace, safety and love through joyous expression and service. And having that as a Northstar metric, I can say that running a professional services firm didn’t really line up with that. Where’s keynote speaking writing books, the new neuromarketing course I just launched on LinkedIn learning, having a mastermind group for marketing executives. Those are things that float my boat. So basically, I just did an inventory and jettisoned everything that didn’t serve me and focused on the things that got me up in the morning.

Jeremy Weisz 14:30

Was that an easy or hard conversation when you discover that to go to your partners and say, This is not my calling right now?

Tim Ash 14:40

Well, I think it was actually clear to most of the employees at my agency that I was in some way not cut out for that role and the partners that that I sold my stake to are much better suited to running it and I my close friend, and to this day, former business partner mighty grave is the president of it, and he He’s doing a fantastic job. So I think it was almost like a recognition after the fact you know what everybody else around me already knew?

Jeremy Weisz 15:07

Hmm. Got it. Yeah. It’s interesting that people, it’s kind of clear to others as opposed to ourselves. We’re the last to know sometimes.

Tim Ash 15:16

Yeah, that I think that’s always the case about insights. People often have a more objective, unbiased view view from outside. But it takes a lot of pain to shift the I don’t think anybody shifts just because they want to be a better person, it’s a discomfort with who they are at the moment. And that has to build to a certain level before you actually act on it.

Jeremy Weisz 15:39

So talk about the transition from agency to solopreneur. Right? So at this time, had you done a lot of keynotes already?

Tim Ash 15:48

Oh, yeah. I like said run my own conference, I’d done at least 100 keynotes. So it was a national, it wasn’t

Jeremy Weisz 15:55

like a huge, huge change.

Tim Ash 15:58

Well, psychologically, it was because if I’m not a an agency, CEO of the last 25 years, then what am I, so there’s probably a three to six month period there where I felt a bit like a turtle without a shell. And then I realized that Yeah, all my friends are still my friends, my my network of people who respect me, my ability, and my knowledge hasn’t gone away, I’m not doing that routine stuff anymore, that used to bore the crap out of me or having to just do the client relationship management, which I didn’t enjoy. So we used to joke in the agency that a little bit of Tim goes a long way. So now I get to parachute in and do those high engagement, high value things and then ride off into the sunset and say, you guys implement it?

Jeremy Weisz 16:47

What else did you find interesting about the transition from agency to solopreneur.

Tim Ash 16:55

I think it’s what you have two choices of what you can do in terms of being more effective, you can try to double down on your strengths, or you can shore up your weaknesses. And I’ve come to the conclusion that you should double down on your strengths, that everything you’re not good at, you should outsource or stop doing. And so as a an entrepreneur and a founder of an agency, I had to wear many hats. And a lot of those didn’t fit me. And so it’s it’s really freeing to take the parking brake off. And it not to do the things that you’re not well suited for. So yeah, I think it takes a certain amount of insight. But I’ve done a bunch of personality tests, as I’m sure you have, like Myers Briggs, and disc and enneagram. And the ocean model, I’ve done them all, they basically say the same thing from different perspectives. And so it’s just a question of how early in life do we start listening to the voice of who we really are, and what environments that works well in.

Jeremy Weisz 18:01

In Unleash Your Primal Brain, you talk a lot about, you know, the power of stories. So I’m wondering some of the compelling or favorite stories that you found, or that you know, readers find in the book?

Tim Ash 18:17

Well, yeah, storytelling is a uniquely distinctly human thing. And a lot of people misunderstand why they’re there, we actually evolved the ability to tell stories. And they’re very powerful for the fundamental reason that we need to make sense of the world. And our world is largely social. So there’s a couple of things there. One is causality. How do we predict if I do this, then this predictably follows afterwards. So we tell stories to understand that causality. And then the other thing is, I said, We live in an intensely personal world, most of our thinking, in fact, our default thinking, unless we’re doing math problems, or something like that goes to social reasoning and modeling our place in the tribe. And so we also tell stories, in order to as a form of social currency. And as a form of reinforcing relationships and transmitting cultural values. That’s really the big evolutionarily bet that we placed was to transmit culture. And stories bypass all the logical defenses, and they go directly into somebody’s head. So this other incredibly powerful

Jeremy Weisz 19:31

You know, when talking about marketing, you were saying something about, you don’t want to just have marketing that is pleasurable, but then book some amount of pain. What did you mean by that?

Tim Ash 19:45

Um, yeah, that’s a great, great question. There’s, we evolved to detect threats. The reason you’re here is because your great great great, great, great, great great grandmother didn’t get eaten by the bear. And the reason is because He was alert enough to know there was a bear around are there threats around so we’re actually much more sensitized the fear loss and pain avoidance than we are to upside. So think of it this way, your brain is kind of lazy, it doesn’t want to do anything. Most of the time, it’s just on autopilot and doesn’t change a thing or want to consciously think about change. But if it is going to change, you have two ways to affect it emotionally. One is with upside, hey, you win the lottery or have some ice cream, or downside which is pain. So hey, Jeremy, what’s your favorite type of ice cream?

Jeremy Weisz 20:34

Ben and Jerry’s. So I’m lactose intolerant. But um, so I Ben and Jerry’s non dairy, chocolate chip cookie dough.

Tim Ash 20:42

Right on. Okay, so here’s a bowl of that, except as you reach for it. What about if I hit you on the back of the hand with a hammer? Just the one time What do you say?

Jeremy Weisz 20:52

I’m probably not reaching for it,

Tim Ash 20:54

okay, you have to be a real ice cream fan that go for that value prop. Yeah, and so that’s that’s, that’s my point is we know we can reliably focus people with pain or loss. And there’s a famous adage that the burden, the hands were two in the bush, it’s, it’s pretty much a two to one ratio of losing something, versus trying to regain it. So marketers often are fighting with one hand tied behind their back by saying we’re the greatest thing since sliced bread. But congratulations. But unless you rub salt into the wound, and tell me the full implications of me staying on my path. before telling me about your product or service, it doesn’t create a lot of compelling value. There’s the workout motto, no pain, no gain. And that pretty much applies to marketing. Unless you can create a pain in me, there won’t be any financial gain in it for you. So the mistake people make is being too nice, not saying anything negative, and you don’t have to, you know, crap all over your competitors. But if say you’re selling tooth whitening, you wouldn’t say Yo, I have white teeth and and wonderful smile. Now what you do is you say, Wow, the those yellow teeth keep you from ever opening your mouth, you have resting bastard face, you’re gonna die alone with cats, because you’ll never get a date. That’s how you sell teeth whitening.

Jeremy Weisz 22:18

I’ve never heard of the resting face. While there’s resting bitchface and master Giada. Yeah, so highlight the pain points really, for whatever market you’re in, as opposed to trying to sell that. That vitamin or pleasure.

Tim Ash 22:36

Yeah, that happy, happy talk. That’s what I call it Happy, Happy talk is not nearly as effective. You can use them both. But you have to start with the pain. So what you want to do is take me on this emotional roller coaster down into the bowels of hell, and then back up into the light. And you haven’t even talked about your product or its cost or anything like that. You want to create that contrast, which makes my brain want to do something about my current situation.

Jeremy Weisz 23:02

Tim, is there an example you could think of you don’t name the company, but that, you know, basically heard you or read your book. And maybe you don’t know this because they didn’t share with you. But anyone you’ve talked to said, Hey, like, we’re doing exactly. What do you say not to do, Tim? We’re leading with this pleasure. And we’ve changed our messaging. And now, here’s what the messaging looks like. So we can see example, or maybe it’s just an example, you observed that it’s bad. Well, I

Tim Ash 23:33

don’t have a specific examples. But I’d say in two thirds, maybe three quarters of that 1.2 billion in value that we created, was used was created by applying these neuromarketing principles. And loss aversion is an obvious one, the one that worked really reliably, there are a lot of companies that have three plans, right and and usually you have the bronze, silver and gold, and people put them in that order. And what we always tell people to do, it’s just the money in the bank is reverse those anchor on the gold plan, then go down to the silver and go down to the bronze. And at each step you say, you know, for the silver, you get the stuff in the gold, except we’re going to take away the following features. And these is a psychology of that of now you’re talking about loss. And a loss of resource makes my brain less able to survive and deal with the environments. I hate losing stuff. So just reversing the order of stuff on a plan page and, and focusing on what you take away from each version to the next. It can be incredibly powerful.

Jeremy Weisz 24:38

Yeah, it’s kind of like taking your over 20 years experience in conversion rate optimization and taking it right kind of right to the human psychology piece. Well, I

Tim Ash 24:49

would say differently. I would say I’ve come full circle when I was at UC San Diego my PhD work was in neural networks artificial intelligence ai i never finished unlike You so I don’t get the call myself, Dr. Tim. Seven years in, I quit and started my first company. And I applied it to marketing. But now I’ve come to full circle to what’s the brain about how do we persuade people? How does this all work? And I find that a lot more engaging. And it’s. So say that marketing is fundamentally based on evolutionary psychology. If you’re focusing on the technology, you’re totally missing the point. I don’t care if it’s TikTok or virtual reality, or I don’t know, hologram suppositories tomorrow, the thing you’re trying to influence is still the human brain. So if you don’t understand that, how that evolved, you’re not going to have a durable career as a marketer.

Jeremy Weisz 25:45

So you talked about Tim, the psychology of those plans, right? I love that. So start from the the most, you know, the biggest gold plan and then take off away. What are some other examples of how you’ve seen psychology work within a page that that someone’s interacting? Well,

Tim Ash 26:06

that plan actually, that plan page description gave you actually had two principles. One was loss aversion, so to talk about taking things away, right. But the other was the starting with the expensive one first, which is another idea of anchoring on something. People don’t have a notion of absolute value. They don’t know whether your enterprise plan versus your agency plan. What’s the value of that there’s no absolute value, so you always anchor on the expensive stuff. So for example, when Apple launched its first AI watch, they launched the Gold Edition for $10,000. Now, not too many people bought those 10,000 worldwide, so you think that would be a big dud for them. But they weren’t trying to get people to buy it somewhere stupid enough to but they were trying to make the price of the 399. Regular I watch seem reasonable, because they were setting this big anchor 10,000. Well, compared to that 399 cheap, what they weren’t telling us that Yeah, arguably I first generation I watch wasn’t that different than your $10 Casio. But they didn’t want you to make that comparison. 10 to 399 is a big step up and a lot more financial pain. So anchoring is also very important principle, in the lobby of your experience, put your most expensive, outrageous thing, you may not even want me to buy it, it’s just there to anchor

Jeremy Weisz 27:30

loss aversion price anchoring, what’s another gem tell you anything about?

Tim Ash 27:35

Well anchoring Another one is that people actually love certainty, they will pay a premium for certainty. So anything that’s certain black or white, is evaluated by the automatic primal parts of our brain anytime we have to kind of think about the trade offs or something or the nuance of it, that requires conscious thought. And that’s a very scarce and quickly depleted commodity. So for example, how you frame things, we talked about loss, but also certainly let’s say you’re going in for medical procedure, and I’m your doctor, and I say, well, Jeremy, great news, you know, like you, this is an in and out, it’s impatient, you’ll be out of here in an hour and 95% chance everything’s gonna go smoothly, right. Now, if I say to you the same thing, which is, yeah, there’s a 5% chance that you’ll have complications or die on the table during the operation. Do you like them apples? No, we pay a lot to remove that premium of uncertainty or any chance of death. So when in terms of how we evaluate risk, black and white all or nothing, it’s either you go to that resort in Cancun, it’s all inclusive drinks, tips, everything we got you covered, no uncertainty about how much you’re going to pay. And what that does it makes you willing be willing to pay a lot more the uncertainty

Jeremy Weisz 29:03

love that. You know, Tim, find like the the people who are driven entrepreneurs, founders, they’re running away from something some kind of pain. Right? And what what do you what have you found drives

Tim Ash 29:17

you? That’s a great question when I was in graduate school, and you can probably relate to this, I came up with this thing, which is that, boy, you really have to be psychologically driven to want to put yourself through the hell of grad school. And look at me, I’m the only exception I’m perfectly normal imbalance. Turned out that wasn’t the case. I think in my case, it was being an immigrant from the former Soviet Union, and having to establish myself there. My mom also had some mental health issues. And so that definitely was a formative thing for me. She has she has had borderline personality disorder. So I had to make some psychological adjustments and one of the reasons I ended up in California was to be 3000 miles away. From New Jersey where my parents live near Philly. So yeah, I agree strong forces often shape us.

Jeremy Weisz 30:08

When did you come to the US?

Tim Ash 30:10

I was eight years old. And then my family emigrated back in the early 70s. And I remember once there was this show about predicting entrepreneurial success, and they had five factors that were actually clearly correlated, male, firstborn, immigrant, Jewish, and no advanced degree. So I kind of blew it on that last one, because I was so stubborn. I wanted to get the advanced degree just like my parents had. But I hit the other four.

Jeremy Weisz 30:40

Wow, I didn’t know that way. When you came to the States. Did you speak English at the time or not a word I

Tim Ash 30:48

in fact, have four kids younger than, you know, 12 or 13. before puberty, I’m really not a big fan of bilingual education. Because kids will soak that up like a sponge. My parents punked us in a public school. I was eight, my brother was five in kindergarten. I know for a fact we were fluent. Three months later, kids are really adaptable. Wow. So this was actually insisting that we speak English at home, they should have insisted that we only speak Russian at home because we were immersed in the English anyway.

Jeremy Weisz 31:21

Yeah, that is tough. I mean, I know. You know, my one of my daughters is nine. And I can’t imagine plunking her into a school where she does not speak the language.

Tim Ash 31:33

It is a bit of an adjustment. But it happens so quickly over the course of a human life that she won’t even remember it.

Jeremy Weisz 31:40

Yeah, I mean, do you think how was that when you were there? As far as the people like treating you that you didn’t speak the language?

Tim Ash 31:51

Well, I again, I don’t even remember that time passing. I should have been in third grade they put we arrived in the US in February. So I finished out the year and second. The next fall they advanced me to fourth and fifth grade I won the fifth grade spelling bee. So I mean, I caught up it’s no big deal.

Jeremy Weisz 32:08

It’s amazing. Um, I you know, first of all, this is fascinating time I you know, your journey from computer scientists digital agency to, you know, Unleash the Your Primal Brain and what you’re doing now, I want to encourage one last question, I would encourage everyone to go to your website. I know you have multiple websites, but one is Tim Ash the checkout, what you’re working on what your book. And then I think you have a specific, you know, that people can check out for the book. And I believe you can buy it on Amazon. I know. And yeah, thank you could also get it on Audible as well.

Tim Ash 32:49

That’s right. So the is about my public speaking and digital marketing advisory services, website reviews or executive support on digital marketing. is all about the book. And as you mentioned, you get the ebook audiobook narrated by me and paperback worldwide. And you can also if you go there, just look at the table of contents and pick out the sample chapter of your choice. And I’ll send it to you as a PDF. So try before you buy, give you a money back guarantee, if anyone gets the book and hates it,

Jeremy Weisz 33:22

no one’s gonna hate it. But so any other places. Before I ask the last question, I know they’re places we should point people online to find out more.

Tim Ash 33:32

No, I encourage everyone to connect with me on LinkedIn, I’m pretty easy to find there and spend a lot of time on LinkedIn for professional stuff. But all the contact information is on both of the websites and they just reach out to

Jeremy Weisz 33:49

Awesome, Tim, last question. And I’m gonna call this the Chris Snyder. final showdown question because Chris Snyder is the one who introduced us. So thank you, Chris. He has a center shout out on podcast he also owned and run runs Believe it or not, so check out what Chris is doing. Last question. I always like to ask this with someone like you who has a couple books has lot sold a lot of books who does a lot of speaking or what are your favorite books and obviously you mentioned Influenced by Robert Cialdini, outside of Unleash Your Primal Brain and your Landing Page book. What other books do you find that you go to? Well,

Tim Ash 34:38

Yuval Harari, his book, Sapiens was was mind blowing. That was probably intellectually, the most powerful book I’ve read in several years. And he goes a lot more into culture. I’m focusing more on the operating system, if you will, what we all share in common. He talks about how culture evolved as well and what was transmitted. Did culturally but that’s a brilliant book. As far as self help, I would say Walker’s Why We Sleep. I have a whole chapter in my book devoted to sleep. Really so foundational and there’s so many people cheat themselves by scrolling through their phone or binge watching one more episode on Netflix big mistake seven to nine hours of sleep non negotiable in my world.

Jeremy Weisz 35:25

I love it. Yeah, actually that’s that was I’m pretty healthy overall Tim but my worst habit is was not sleeping as much I got an aura ring and actually just tracking it has definitely helped me just because it’s, you’re seeing the data.

Tim Ash 35:44

Yeah, and most people say a diet exercise and then sleep comes in a distant third. That’s completely backwards. You can’t function as a human being read social situations, learn physical skills, manage your your reactivity, anything like that. I mean, sleep is daily life support. So it’s a really big mistake that cheat yourself.

Jeremy Weisz 36:06

Just another person reinforcing that so I appreciate that. Tim, first of all, I want to be the first one to thank you everyone. Check out check out check out the book, Unleash Your Primal Brain. If you’re watching this Tim talk, because I’m gonna let you talk for just a second because it will only show me talking even though you show the book so I’ll let you talk and hold up the book so people can see it.

Tim Ash 36:30

Sounds good. Yeah, it’s called Unleash Your Primal Brain: Demystifying how we think and why we act.

Jeremy Weisz 36:36

Check it out, everyone, thank you check out more episodes. Thanks, Tim.

Tim Ash 36:41

It’s been my pleasure. Thank you, Jeremy.