Search Interviews:

Orrin Klopper 7:23

know, it’s, it’s, it literally can bring a business to its knees. So we are given one example we had a customer, a customer that was breached. Long story short, we’d made a recommendation that various offices around the VPN technology that they use, they didn’t have it in their budget now. So we’ve got a rental option, too bad time. And without getting too technical, those those second hand devices provided an opportunity for the hackers to get in. And they got in leveraging ransomware. And Jimmy, I cannot tell you how professional they were. They told us that they had like fully documented letters, we’re going to turn this into an opportunity for you to learn from this, et cetera, et cetera. And so anyway, we went through a long process, obviously, it made huge changes. But this this literally bought this business to its knees for a short period of time. Another example was what really

Jeremy Weisz 8:34

quickly on that on where their show rats asking for money, what were their what were they asking for? They were asking for Bitcoin? Hmm. Yeah, you know, I think each Bitcoin now I don’t know, when someone’s listening to this, like you’re probably hovering around $20,000. So I don’t know how many they’re asking for a mallet cheap ask.

Orrin Klopper 8:58

No, no. And it is what blew me away. Jamie was just, I mean, it’s not professional to do anything illegal, but they were run, it was run like a bit. They were you could see they were very broad, very well thought out. Very structured. I mean, it was, it was you know, so that’s a more sophisticated one. But the simplest examples are simply a user clicking on an email, and we’re someone masquerades. So give you an example customer of ours is has has a customer, the customer is due to pay them 2 million euros, right? The hackers masquerade as, as someone, someone from our customer, saying please paired into this account. And so there’s no that’s all it is, is it’s just a user that has been potentially fooled, because you can have all the security in the world but if if your users are not active Understanding that you need to really be circumspect of any email that’s asking for those types of details. And the 2 million euros actually was transferred, but they ended up having a relationship with one of the large banks, and they were able to get it reversed. So fortunately, it didn’t have have the impact that that could have. But it’s yeah, it can happen to anybody. And probably the biggest category of awareness are tied to the hygiene and fundamental core core security elements is us educating your users. And the various ways of doing that.

Jeremy Weisz 10:39

It’s not Oren. I told you so conversation you want to have with someone who’s most on the budget now, and then it gets breached. As like, well, you don’t want to say I told you so. But at that point, it’s kind of apparent I

Orrin Klopper 10:54

know, and what and what does happen, unfortunately, is that the customers serve a whelmed and stressed, they can tend to take it out on their their managed services or their IT partner, but we throw the Cavalier, and we don’t even get into that we do every single thing we can to mitigate the impact and to learn from it. And to close those, close those gaps. And we’ve, we’ve not lost a single customer that has had a breach because, you know, in any service industry, any b2b business, that those difficult times are when you build the deepest and strongest relationships. And yeah, we’ve managed to come out of those much stronger.

Jeremy Weisz 11:38

Yeah, from from that perspective, the person who had that threat, and they were really professional, what is best practice to respond to that threat? Because I’m sure that they were completely overwhelmed up in arms. And and some people may just think this is going to go away,

Orrin Klopper 11:55

also. Yeah, yeah. So so to share some of the sort of learnings that we’ve and approaches that we’ve taken, number one, don’t pay. Which is controversial. And people, you know, have to pay? Because we think that’s a slippery slope. Because you can’t pay? And then, you know, it depends on what they have you been able to get access to. Number two is, is is do everything you practically can in the short term, to close the gap between what allowed them to get in and, and how you can show that as soon as possible. And a big piece of that we’ve seen is also user education. Those probably be the two key, the two key key points, you know,

Jeremy Weisz 12:53

talk about, you know, with growing the company, the landscape when you first started, okay, for a second, what was it like first started and then I want to talk about when what point did you Institute kind of a growth through acquisition

Orrin Klopper 13:09

strategy? Okay, great. So we first started, there, it was y2k, as that was kind of the, I mean, we first started the business officially in 1997 entrepreneurially, in 95. But leading up to 1999. Most SMB businesses, small and medium enterprises were being absolutely exploited by RT service provides. And so there was a huge opportunity to go in there, be honest, be transparent. This is really what you need to find new customers at their time, and probably from let’s call it 9899, around about until, well past 2010. And even up to let’s call it 2015 It wasn’t a commoditized insanely competitive space. It was relatively easy to get customers because SMEs and entrepreneurs, businesses who are adopting technology, that adoption was growing, the number of companies that were seeing the importance of technology was growing. So that was very, very a fun growth period.

Jeremy Weisz 14:20

I mean, mostly, they didn’t have websites, right. I mean, did this

Orrin Klopper 14:25

know their security approach was the machine that they had the accounting system on? It was often network. You know, you laugh at it now, you know, but you think it’s like it probably wasn’t a bad idea back in those days. So so it was it was it was that easy to get customers but much easier than it is to not do what you

Jeremy Weisz 14:48

tell people because technology was ever changing. It was new. Some people may I mean, that was I mean, maybe it wasn’t is the wasn’t many providers, but people, it may be a harder explanation

Orrin Klopper 15:05

at that point. Yeah, sure. I mean, we weren’t anywhere near as sophisticated from a marketing perspective as we are now. And we, we probably the one marketing outreach we leveraged in those days, we actually did a research survey. And we gave those results to everybody that participated. And we would serve at anywhere between two to 4000. Small and Medium Enterprises, entrepreneurial businesses, and we ran that program for about six to seven years. So that was one way that we engaged as we were able to share that impact that information back to them. And one of the key thesis or sort of areas we were trying to discuss was how can entrepreneurs SME businesses, leverage technology to have a positive impact on their competitiveness. So that was the one way we reached out that was sort of the theme. And then the other was, you know, really, from a skills perspective, because we’ve always had unbelievable marks soft skills, we were able to make sure that organizations could adopt the technology and use it in the best way in their in their businesses. But we were, we were not very sophisticated and a lot came from relationships. So when you look at many growing small and medium enterprise businesses, the relationship comes from the Jeremy from the RN, and the other leadership team. And for the first time from an organic growth perspective, probably in the last, I would say three years, our growth is has coming 90% of our leads are coming from marketing, role marketing activities that are outside of our relationships.

Jeremy Weisz 16:45

I love the research survey. I mean, that’s sophisticated, I would think even on today’s standards, actually, I love that. Thank you, what point did you decide acquisition, if you’re going to implement acquisition as a strategy for growth.

Orrin Klopper 17:03

So we we have used it in an ad hoc way. For proof for quite a few years, we decided on it being our primary growth lever in 2019. And when we are going into 2020, a couple of things. So we have quite a mature strategic planning process. So at the end of 2019, so many September, October, we kick off strategic planning, we could see our organic growth was in a hole. It was it was bad, like really bad. And then we saw the pandemic coming as we went into 2020. So now we’ve got organic growth and a whole with the pandemic coming. And we don’t know how what impact this is going to have. So so we just aggressively attack, we went through the most vicious cost cutting we’ve ever done by nothing. And we did two things with those that cost 50% We put back into into profits and cash flow and the other 50%, we put into something called a growth and innovation fund. So for the first time, I had a whole lot of budget. And we retained a buy side advisory firm from an acquisitive growth perspective, over their period over the last two of the last three years, we’ve increased our organic marketing spend five times we spend five times more now than we did three years ago. And we invested heavily in in acquisitive growth. And in 2020, we were able to 2021 we were able to conclude three deals. And Matt made some mistakes, some serious learnings. And we have two other other deals with three other deals in the pipeline right now. And this is one of our primary growth levers. What do you look for?

Jeremy Weisz 19:05

Let’s say someone’s listening, partner like show actually we fit perfectly or we should contact Oren. Yeah, talk about a deal. What do you look for?

Orrin Klopper 19:15

So we’re I mean, in the space anywhere between, let’s say, three to $8 million in revenue. We’re looking for organizations MSPs that have 60% or more recurring revenue, at least a 10% EBITA. And we’re looking for, for entrepreneurs that deeply value that people deeply value the relationships they’ve built to their customers over the years and are looking for another chapter in the entrepreneurial journey. Because our approach is we want to keep the key leaders there might be two or three key leaders and one wants to execute. We want to keep the key leaders because The greatest limitation to rapid growth is access to highly talented leaders. And we know that part of the acquisitive growth is for us to bring those leaders along with us on on this journey.

Jeremy Weisz 20:13

I mentioned there’s five locations around the world view have a preference of geographical location, yourself,

Orrin Klopper 20:22

primarily primarily in the US. Got it?

Jeremy Weisz 20:27

That’s great. And then how long do they take? Typically, I know they may vary, but from when you discover a company to finalizing a deal, is there an average?

Orrin Klopper 20:39

So maybe just to highlight a couple of steps in the process just to give clarity? So initially, initially, it’s a relationship building, we were very few numbers are exchanged, and just get to know each other, is there actually a fit? Man at some point in that process? So let’s, let’s call that, I mean, I’ve done that as long as three months or as short as a month, where the chemistry is just right. And the timing seems right. Then the next phase is, we will agree, okay, can we can we do an initial financial diligence to understand or an initial diligence where we build a financial model that can take anywhere from three to four weeks, depending on how readily available that information is? Then we draft an LOI letter of interest. And the way we’ve we do the LOI is it’s actually exactly what the purchase agreement would look like. So that there are no surprises in that space, from signed loi to the purchase agreement, typically, so that that process, so we might, it might be entering, let’s call it three to six weeks to do that initial financial model, agree that loi can be another two to four weeks. And then from loi to close can be anywhere from two months to four months. What’s one learning?

Jeremy Weisz 21:58

Because I’m sure in this process, do 12345 You bring your learnings to the next scenario? What’s Warren, one learning that you wish you knew in the first couple?

Orrin Klopper 22:11

Deals? That’s a great, that’s a great a great, a great question. And in the beginning, we don’t want to talk about numbers. But also we want to be respectful of each other’s time. And at some point in that initial kind of connecting and relationship building, just to get a high level view of our Are you roughly realistic from a valuation perspective. So that’s one thing I’ve there been a few times where I’ve just had such amazing chemistry and we loving chatting to each other and feeling inspired from sharing learnings. And then we kind of get to the numbers discussion, they literally expecting three times what is what is realistic price on the market? So I’ve wasted their

Jeremy Weisz 22:54

time and they wanted they their expectation was higher as far as evaluation goes. Yes. Yes. That’s hard to know, without that conversation,

Orrin Klopper 23:04

for sure. It’s hard to know. But I mean, just to give you context, it, I mean, depending who you talk to there between 20 to 40,000, MSPs, just in the US alone, and there’s been enough deals done, and enough understanding to be able to say this is really kind of what a favorable part looks like. And then the other the other learning that is difficult to balance is how do you get a deeper insight into the culture of the organization without alarming the people of their organization? So I’m an entrepreneur and and nature is approached to buy my business. Now, I don’t want to go and just tell all my people that we’re considering selling the business. And next thing matric comes in all sorts of questions, and then the deal’s off. So balancing that dynamic, because what we have found is without being able to speak to more than just who we’re dealing with, it’s hard to ascertain from a cultural perspective. So we’ve worked out some ways of learning from that. But I think the one thing that any entrepreneur can do is just to be able to say to their pupil, look, you know, might not happen now, it could happen in three years or four years. But I am at some point going to look on bringing a partner to take us to the next chapter of our journey. So that when there is that type of discussion, you can go a little bit deeper. And then, yeah, I think the other piece that we’ve seen again and again, is really, for me, is a growth mindset. And it’s a challenging dynamic to be able to measure that because it’s being able to put ego aside as a leader and adopt a growth mindset to be able to say, You know what, I used to do things like this. And now I’m going to think like one business and we’re going to do Do things in this way, and be able to put the ego aside. Because for us, any business we acquire the leaders that adopt the growth mindset in their business, they will end up with more opportunities. And they can say yes to it just might look different to what you’re doing today. Yeah, and

Jeremy Weisz 25:21

I love, I love the verbiage what you said there, which is bring on a partner, it just sounds less, I’m going to lose my job. Right? Like, if you say, we’re going to be purchased, there is a acquisition, you know, bringing a partner, which is, you know, it just is for the leadership team, and one of the I love the podcast, Built to Sell. And he talks a lot about this, how do you tell your team? And because you have to tell them at some point, when do you tell them and that kind of thing. So there’s some good episodes there on that.

Orrin Klopper 25:57

And maybe to talk from my own examples, I used to see the private equity space, Jeremy as the axis of evil. They’re gonna come in, they’re gonna fire everybody. They’re going to ruin the culture, Tiff, et cetera. So, but there are almost 60 private equity firms that are focused on the MSP space in the US 60. So that is a huge economic force. So to ignore that would just be absolutely crazy as an MSP. So we’re privately held, we have no private equity partner. But at some point, we are going to bring on a private equity partner, but what I have done is made sure I DPN standard, so of all the books and articles and things I’ve read, probably the one, the one that kind of started me sort of saying, okay, private equity isn’t all that bad as a book, but it’s more like an SL 120 paper or it Kaddish, I think it’s good lessons for CEOs from private equity. And then that kind of made me think, okay, there’s something here. And then I read Adam cofece book, private equity playbook. So Adam has done 58 acquisitions, he was the CEO of three private equity backed businesses. And he was never ever from a private equity firm. But he literally led those businesses with multiple private equity owners. And so what we’ve done is we’ve retained him as an advisor. And we are saying to our people now, and we have no private equity deals that we’re considering. And it’s not yet the timing for us, we say this is going to happen. At some point, we’re going to bring on a growth partner, who’s going to be able to help us execute on our growth strategy.

Jeremy Weisz 27:32

I love that. So the who is the author, again,

Orrin Klopper 27:36

Adam, Kofi coffe. Why he’s also done another book, both of them Amazon bestsellers, the exit playbook. Cool. Check that out, just the most down to earth guy. And he makes it simple and easy to understand. Love it. How do you protect culture,

Jeremy Weisz 27:55

you bring on these other companies, you have a lot of people, you know, integrating into to net threat? How do you protect culture?

Orrin Klopper 28:05

So the one the one book we read, called Scaling up excellence. And there was a concept they they spoke about in their excuse their religious terms. It’s Buddhism versus Catholicism. It’s almost and and the idea of, what do you want to prescribe in the business that you buy? And and and is non negotiable and dictate in almost an authoritarian way? And what do you do is less prescriptive, and more this is the core philosophy and concept. These are the values in the wrist, we need flexible. So we’ve, we we’ve been thinking a lot about this. And actually, when we look in that position, we make a list of things and we say, what are we going to be Buddhist on? What are we going to be Catholic on, and literally taking that. So we want to protect the soul of that organization. We want to protect the magic that has attracted us to that organization and that business. And culture is actually not something that can be performance measured, it’s not something that can be disciplined, unless you get to a value site where it becomes pretty black and white. It’s more of a community dynamic. And that community dynamic is so sensitive. So we employ various tactics to protect that, but probably the primary one is keep the great managers and leaders wherever we can do that, because I think a whole lot of good culture lives in those great managers and leaders. And then our dreams program. We bring our dreams program in. But that’s another discussion where that can you I believe it sometimes it’s perceived negatively. Like a cult and what I think some organizations do We have the view that and the people in those organizations my work life is my work life, my personal life is my personal life, those two shall never meet. I think he’s the exact opposite. We said that inextricably linked, you spend more of your waking hours at work or engaging in work, then you do anything else in your working life? How could they be happy they’d be not being. So so that dynamic is, is a direct conflict. And we encourage, you know, we’re both members of yo and you’re in a forum. So in a forum, you’re encouraged to share openly and be vulnerable. In our, in our dreams program in a dream group, it’s formals. It’s, it’s highly confidential, you can share what’s going on in your life, what you’re struggling with is experience sharing, obviously, in a distorted way. So sometimes where the where there isn’t that thinking in the organization, it is seen as a negative thing. And the truth is, it’s not for everybody, right? Not everybody wants to be in a workplace where they’re asking you to engage. So openly and transparently, we definitely respect that idea. So we don’t force it, anybody you don’t have to. But it’s difficult if you’re not going to be part of this in our culture.

Jeremy Weisz 31:17

To talk about the dreams program, it was one of the things I was excited about this interview to just researching you and your company. And what you do, you do have this globally award, you know, award award of dreams program, which is a key part of culture. And what I love is people share goals, from their personal life, if they want to achieve something if they want to do something. So just talk about the dreams program.

Orrin Klopper 31:46

Yeah, so So to give you a little bit of context in history in 2004, one of our top engineers, I mean, back in 2004, there were very little cloud servers were in a server room, which was not really a server with no air conditioning. And in summer, the service would crash because we’ll be so hot, one of our engineers goes out one of our top guys, he’s actually in a, in our team in New York today, just one of the most amazing humans. And I get a call from one of our teams saying he’s sitting in front of the server. He’s not typing, he’s not talking. He’s just sitting. He had a full on. But we realized I realized at that point, as I thought about this, if we’re going to build something significant, we need a culture where people can be balanced. And they can and they can do their their ultimate passion, which is a technology industry, because a lot of these guys go home and do it on the weekend anyway, because they love it so much. And how do we actually proactively manage that balance. And then in 2007, our tener EO EMP program, and Cameron, Harold mentioned a book called The Dream manager. So I read that book. And then I read Tony Schwartz and Tim Miller’s book, The Power of full engagement. And then I read Tony Shay’s book, delivering on happiness, I actually read that I read that after we launched the program, and essentially, we launched the program in 2008. And the sum, just to explain to you what it is, what at the beginning of the year, the calendar year, we all create what’s called a dream book, which is your top 10 personal goals and dream visualized, which in our businesses, the way we do it is it’s a PowerPoint deck, the 10 images. And so now we have this for I mean, hundreds of people in others, you get put down into a dream group, which is like forum in EO, which can be anywhere between six to 10 people. And you meet once a month, and you support each other in a way to achieve your personal goals and dreams. We have a section in our performance view, like I mentioned meetings, which we do every six months where the line manager has a discussion with his team member around, how are you doing? We have in our expo once a month, we’ve got red, green, yellow, are you coping, from a purpose perspective supporting the gyms and the doers, and each extra leader puts red, green or yellow. And then we also have a week in advance a dynamic where, at the beginning of the week, on a Monday before 12 o’clock, you capture the three to five actions that are going to take you towards achieving your goals and dream. And that gets circulated to your your dream coach. And that’s really how far we go. You know, there’s so much to goal setting and achieving the mind micro details but we just want to light the fire and nurture it and create a safe space in our culture for people to to talk about what they really want in their lives and to openly pursue it. We had people resign because of the dream struggle because they realized this is not what they wanted to do. And that’s amazing. And then three years later, I get like text or something. The one guy will be in a picture of him on the Wall of China, you know, because it was in his dream book and it’s just like a continue on with joy and meaning and purpose that brings to life. You know, why 10? I’m curious. So we took a process that we took a, a methodology from a guy Koechlin mud work, that you take the spoke of eight spokes of the wheel of law, brainstorm per spoke as if there were no limits, narrowed down to your top 25 And then narrow down to your top 10. And then he’s, the methodology actually talks to a top three, but some people only do six. Some people do four. I’ve actually got 11 This year in mind. So it’s, it’s up to you. It doesn’t have to be tape. What are

Jeremy Weisz 35:51

some examples? You mentioned the someone visiting, you know, the Great Wall, what are some of your facade.

Orrin Klopper 36:00

Now, some of them are so simple, like the one you saw this woman climbing out of a pool, and it’s a god’s grandmother, and she didn’t have enough money to repair her pool. He’s got it in his dream book, he wants to save up so he can repair his grandmother’s pool. So she can so she can swim in a pool again. A lot of them have financial goals. Achieving savings, a lot of them have traveled goals. You know, we’ve we’ve, we’ve had team members in in high Chi Minh City, we’ve got team members in in Poland, in Peru, in you know, because we have a lot of remote workers. And the funny thing is, everybody wants some of the things in their life, like similar things for more time with their family. More that may help, you know, so we always prioritizing them thinking about what’s really going to make them the best version of themselves. Because in Jim’s terminal and Tony Schwartz book, the powerful engagement, they spoke about the idea that an eight hour day, if you’re balanced and engaged, you can get better results and productivity out of a person than a 16 hour day, it’s actually been proved proven that, that that is the truth. Hmm.

Jeremy Weisz 37:17

That’s amazing. No, I wrote down all those books. I appreciate it. And I did I think two episodes of Cameron Herald on the podcast, we’ll come check that out. He always has great advice. Do you speak to the CEO group in South Africa? Or where do you hear him?

Orrin Klopper 37:34

No, I was at the MIT. I was at MIT, the EMP, the EMP program. Got it.

Jeremy Weisz 37:42

One things you mentioned before, which is your innovate service and automation. And everyone loves saving time and tasks. And that when we do that we save money. And we reduce mistakes, too. Yeah. And so there’s a few examples, one of which was a nonprofit and economical development. Could you talk about what you did there?

Orrin Klopperr 38:09

Yeah, sure. So really, they were struggling with manual processing of high volume of supply invoices. And spending about 180 hours on on this talk. And the two sides of this one? Yeah, the two sides, there’s the one is the people doing that work. It is not going to be inspirational, engaging work. And then the other side is just the raw waste of time. So we were we were literally able to automate that process entirely. Leave it leveraging the marks of power automate platform, and some optical character recognition. And essentially 180 hours has been saved. And that didn’t result in someone being being let go or anything like that. Now they can do other work that is higher value more engaging and more stimulated. Can you talk about Oren?

Jeremy Weisz 39:03

Just if there’s some of the process of identifying these automation opportunities?

Orrin Klopper 39:09

So yeah, so. So this can be a lot of fun. And so initially, how we do it is we actually offer for in the start of an engagement with a with a potential customers, we offer a business automation assessment assessment, which is about an hour. And there’s no cost to that. And we actually will provide key recommendations. It’s quite simple. It’s a one page summary. And in that will be what we understood about your business, from an from a technology adoption, digital transformation and an automation perspective, what we’ve heard as far as the key priorities, and then what we believe to be some of the key opportunities. The other way that we the other way that we do it is we’ve got a an ideation platform called the N Spark, where we will get maybe, let’s say, this is an account, there are five people in finance, it’s just three people, we’ll take two of those people, put them on the platform, and literally ask them the question, what are the highest value activities, okay, that you’re performing, and how automated all that. And then that goes into a list of ideas. And we literally vote on them, to have the ones that potentially create their greatest value rise to the top. And then you start getting granular on those saying, Okay, how much time is it taking currently? And what would it look like if it was automated, so then you could start leveraging an ROI. And then from there, you can, there you can make a decision implement, and then you can help let that fund what you do next. And

Jeremy Weisz 40:54

that’s huge value, if you can automate some of the highest value activities. I feel like it’s a mindset shift for some people, because they feel like some of those highest value activities can’t or shouldn’t be automated, you run up against that

Orrin Klopper 41:11

push of without a doubt. And it’s it’s is a deep change management exercise that has to take place. So that those those team members and potentially leaders in the business feel comfortable. The tough reality is the opportunity that digital transformation in a business represents. It’s you never arrive there. It’s actual, it’s perpetual. You need to be thinking like this as a business leader in an organization all the time, because it will always change and there will always be new opportunities. And the way to deal with some of that resistance is if the key leaders are adopting and embracing it, then it almost becomes ingrained in your culture. And it almost becomes an embracing of a growth mindset. And what you’re doing is you’re leveraging technology to achieve it. And the bottom line is that a lot of SMB SME entrepreneur organizations are paying for their technology already. And this additional 20 3040 50% of value can be realized without even spending any more. They literally just need to adopt and embrace what they have.

Jeremy Weisz 42:21

Because I can see you on yearly, oh, you know what, you have this 180 hours a month that can be automated with these invoices like foreign that can’t be automated. I mean, we’ve been doing it like this for seven years or whatever. 10 years, right. And it’s a mindset shift, as well. There was another company, you worked with a financial services company, what did you do?

Orrin Klopper 42:44

Yeah, that’s right. So yeah, again, it was some really highly skilled team members were just manually capturing and transferring tax return records. From cloud based tax and accounting solution, cch access to SharePoint Online, and it was just waiting this, this end up being about 40 hours a month, 40 to 50 hours a month. And just leveraging the technology that they had. We were literally able to automate that entire that has taught us it’s amazing.

Jeremy Weisz 43:20

I have one last question or and before I ask it, I want to point people towards To learn more about what you do, and e t s u r i Learn more about their company and what they’re doing there. And check out more episodes of InspiredInsider. Last question or and you know, you mentioned mentioned already some treasure trove of resources books, people. Yes. So I want to do just a quick recap of that. And then any others that you want to mention. You mentioned. Adam Coffee. You mentioned Cameron Herald, you mentioned Delivering Happiness. You mentioned the powerful engagement. What are some in the dream manager? What are some other ones that people should

Orrin Klopper 44:09

check out? People or books? Yeah. So So, um, an iconic piece. It’s still I always think about when we look for for differentiation as entrepreneurs, I think we have to ask ourselves this question is the blue ocean strategy, I still believe is one of the most powerful strategy books I’ve ever read. And just one of gallops really most powerful books that still today, I believe stands the test of time, which is first break all the rules by Marcus Buckingham. And they literally surveyed 80,000 I mean, it’s, it’s 80,000 companies and over a million stuff. I went and actually looked at this and it’s over 2 million now. And the deduction that came today is one thing. The relationship and loyalty organization lives in your line manager, who your manager is not the company and then came up with 12 questions that just talk about engage. And, and then yeah, just some iconic ones that just talked to our operating system and values bottle is good today by by Jim Collins and probably the last space just a couple in here that it just so so powerful you know, when you look at successful organizations and successful people, you’ve you’ve managed to harness habits because habits are the fabric, the bedrock that results in us in achieving what we want in our lives and in our careers. And to the best pieces of work. There are atomic habits for me, and then Charles Duhigg book, The Power of Habit. Those are just phenomenally Interesting, interesting books that I’ve learned so so much

Jeremy Weisz 45:52

I love it. Orrin I want to be the first one to thank you and I remember listening to that mark is booking Buckingham book on audio cassette in my car numerous times so that is that is one of my favorites as well so yeah for people listening don’t know an audio cassette tape is the square thing. But everyone check out Check out more episodes in spurt insider and Oren, thank you so much. Thank you, Jeremy.