Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 10:53
How did you meet your co-founders? Well, it sounds like you worked with one of them, David. He was a client of yours.
Olivier Roth: 11:01
Yeah. David was a client of mine. So I knew him for years, which is great to kind of make the jump and be co-founders, you know, like it’s awesome. And Michal met David in the Y Combinator community, I believe. Yeah, in April of 2021. And he joined us.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 11:23
Did you guys go through Y Combinator early on or no?
Olivier Roth: 11:27
No, it was like the Y Combinator community is like open to anyone who’s looking for a co-founder. It’s pretty great. And you don’t have to Y Combinator, there’s like thousands and thousands of people on it.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 11:40
How did that conversation go with David to join forces? Right. Because I’m sure you had some stuff going on. He had stuff going on. What was the conversation like?
Olivier Roth: 11:54
Yeah. You know, it was over like a few months, of course. So there’s like multiple conversations, but it was a great time on my side because I was starting like I decided to ramp down my agency. I was like running around, hair on fire. And I had like, you know, two offices, San Francisco and Denver. I had a fantastic time. But after like this like seven year cycle, I had a couple of people who left and I was like, okay, I think I’m ready to look for what’s next. But I wasn’t exactly sure. I was kind of like in search mode.
That’s when, you know, the phone rang and hey, I raised like a pre-seed round from successful, you know, startup operators, we have like this, and that was the timing, like worked out perfectly. On the personal front, my daughter of four year old now was born at that time. So it was kind of like a.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 12:56
It’s a hectic time.
Olivier Roth: 12:57
It was like a hectic time, but it was also like time I ramped down my agency. I took a few months off when my daughter was born. And then I like started like with David, who’s also a dad of like young kids. And then Michal very quickly afterward also has like a young kids this new era, right? So that was like, that was kind of like the turning of the page. And it happened very, very organically.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 13:28
Can you talk about hiring for a second? Because I know your platform is pretty technical and it seems like you have a lot of software engineers. You guys are also in San Francisco. I mean, talk about attracting talent in hiring.
Olivier Roth: 13:45
Yeah. Relationships, right. So we’ll go back to the relationships. And that really was like the initial use case of The Swarm, like recruiting, like you can see your team’s network. So you can ask them, how is this person or that person?
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 14:00
I guess that’s original use case of The Swarm.
Olivier Roth: 14:03
So that’s the original Swarm. So there you go. Right on target. And Michal brought a lot of talent that he knew. And you know, over the last five years like some left and some joined. But it’s been a lot of like, I mean, most, most people are people like that in some capacity, we worked with in the past. Grace joined us recently on the sales team. And yeah, that was not through a referral, but like a more like classic, like hiring.
But you know, like, I think people when they join a startup at like ten people, they’re taking a bet, right? They’re taking a bet that you’re going to stay around and you’re going to go, you know, up and to the right. And that things are going to go well. So a lot of it is like, I think giving them the confidence that what you’re building is like is working is unique, is interesting to work on. And then giving them the flexibility. You’re like, you’re gonna, you know, I tell Grace like you are building the sales department and maybe in six, 12 months, like you’ll be leading other sellers and so on.
And so here’s like everything we know, and here’s the playbook, but there is like 80% of it is not built. So do you want to build it? And so on. And hiring those people, it’s like, I want to hire those type of people. And I want the people who are joining to have the knowledge that, to have that idea that that’s what they’re going to be and that be excited about that. And that was the case with, with grace, like very, very quickly, you know, just like that was very clear very quickly.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 15:58
I mean, for the right person, it’s great. They can kind of create their own department, so to speak. And some people would hate that and some people would love that.
Olivier Roth: 16:07
People hate that early stage startup kind of need that 100%. I mean, yeah, there is no, nothing is set in stone, which is the fun part of it. But yeah, it’s like it’s what it is. It’s an early stage startup.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 16:21
You know, you mentioned we talked about reverse engineering introductions. This is my favorite thing to talk about. We have a few examples that maybe we could talk through of how you do that and using The Swarm. Maybe you start with Elon Musk.
Olivier Roth: 16:40
Yeah. So one of the visions of The Swarm early on is like, you can find an intro path to anyone. Like there is an intro path to anyone. And I want to talk about LinkedIn for a second because it’s the obvious platform that comes to mind when you think of like, you know, finding warm intros. And on LinkedIn, you can see pretty far because you see your third degree connections, right? And because of the six degree separation thing, with three degrees, you can see pretty far, especially in tech or whatever industry you’re in, like if LinkedIn is pretty well adopted, at least, you know, white collar industries like, and so on, you can see, you can find interest to like virtually anyone.
But the problem with LinkedIn connections is that people only know five, 10% of their connections. And some people know more, some people like are very, very good about it. But the truth is, people treat LinkedIn more as an audience than a network. And it’s what it is. They sell ads. I mean, they, you know, they are optimized to be like a content platform where you build your audience. And it’s actually not, I mean, it’s only a fraction of your network and you only know a fraction of the people. So if you try to find a path to Elon Musk from LinkedIn, you may have, I don’t know, I haven’t tried, but you may have him as a third degree connection and so on. But that’s not gonna that’s not gonna lie. If you try, you’re probably the first degree. You’re probably, and I don’t know that other person that may know him and, and so on, but it doesn’t scale.
What we did is we built a technology that looks at like a person’s experience where they worked. And when that looks at where they went to school, that looks at like their role, their seniority that looks at their investors, if they’re an exec then looks at the investors in the company and it’s basically like mapping a little like relationship graph. It also looks at what they post on LinkedIn, what they talk about and who’s responding and reacting to them. And so you can see that around your target. So Elon Musk, for example, you would build that graph of relationship around Elon Musk. So there are board members and so on that will have an intro to him directly, like they will their board members. So that you, you immediately kind of like sort of like, you know, increase the size of the target, so to speak.
And then what we do is around your company, so yourself, your network, but also like the network of your team, your advisors, your investors, your customers, which you can all set up on this form. We then look at the intersection of those graphs and we find intro paths. So for example, intro path would be like, our investor has worked for ten years with the board member of SpaceX. And it’s actually, it is like a thing that I’m taking. This example is actually an example that worked. And so there is a valuable intro path.
So that’s the whole difference with LinkedIn. And by doing that with former colleagues, alumni networks, investor overlaps. And then by the way, you can also have your team and stakeholders put LinkedIn and email contacts on top of that. By doing all this mapping, we find valuable info path. We rank the intro path. So you have 100 intro path, but like the bottom 90 aren’t as doable. The top ten are actually like doable.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 20:19
Like ranks them like this path is probably the most likely path. And then there’s a B, C, D, EFG.
Olivier Roth: 20:26
And so we use AI in the building of the tool and in the scoring in the mapping and scoring. So it’s kind of funny like that. We use AI to build something that fosters, you know, human relationships. And I love it. And I think it’s one of the things I love the most about The Swarm is like, we believe in human to human relationships.
We’re not trying to build something that’s going to fake relationships or whatnot, which most AI is actually pointed at. But we use AI to build it. We and to, and to find, you know, to find the path and so on. But then like where the magic happens when people meet and when the intro is made, when the deal is closed and so on. So yeah, just like just a segue on like on AI for humans.
If you want.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 21:16
I’m going to pull up something. I’m just curious. You have a free plan, right? Free plan plans still cost you money? You know the company money. So talk about how you came to the pricing because let’s say someone comes in and they go, you know, okay, this sounds amazing, right? I know there’s a lot of people want to get a hold of. There’s, you know, really three, if I can get a hold of these people, I’m signing up for The Swarm. I’m not sure how people think about, you know, this, but talk about why you included these particular features in the free version and how people have used it. Maybe then kind of, you know, when I talked to one of the founders of Jotform, that’s what he said. He’s like, it’s kind of a product led sales, which is like, they tried out, it works, and they just go to the next step.
Olivier Roth: 22:07
Yeah, yeah. So early on, we wanted to sort of democratize it. I mean, like I said, we’re very like startup. Like, I mean, David, Michal and I, we wanted this to be like, available. We don’t want to create a wall and only work with enterprise and so on. Like we do want to work with enterprise, but like, we’ve been just, it’s in our roots, like, right to make this like democratized. One of the reasons is also like the Tam, like the TAM, total addressable market is huge. I mean, any B2B company that’s selling something to someone, it can use warm intro. So it’s a huge TAM. So we quickly realized if we want to be the category leader, we want to be like, you know, we want to go with something that’s very accessible to anyone. Anyone can try it. And there is a free plan you can use.
Now, the free plan doesn’t have any integrations. Like if you want to pull your data over with the API. And if you want to use the, I don’t know, HubSpot integration, that’s not on the free plan, but you, you get, you get like your network and, and you get like ability to like search through your network and, and, and find intros, but it’s on a SaaS platform, whereas the other plans give you access to the API, to the MCP, like what I said about building on top of the platform and so on.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 23:34
TAM connectors, what does that, explain what that means?
Olivier Roth: 23:36
So connector is someone you’re going to ask an intro to.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 23:38
Yeah. So let’s take Anthriopic. I’m like, you know, you mentioned we talked about that before, which is like, okay, that’s one of my ten. So how do you plug it into the system so that it’s like, oh, great, that’s one of my connectors.
Olivier Roth: 23:53
So the connectors are going to be the people you’re going to ask the intro to. So the people that know you and they’re interested in your success somehow. So I’m giving that broad definition because it can be your team members. So if you’re the founder, maybe your executives, team members are interested in the success of the company. Of course, your investors, if you have investors or advisors, your happy customers, your partners, your industry friends. So it’s a long list. It can be like a lot, but like you get ten in the free plan, you get 15 in the premium plan, then you get more as you go. Right.
And so what we do with those is we map their network and we build that graph of relationships around your company. So the more connectors you have, the bigger the graph you have, the more like hits on target you get when you look up for intros to a company. So yeah, there’s this like subscription levels that based on number of connectors, because it’s like the biggest value driver is the number of connectors initially. And then there is like usage based, if you are going to use it on Claude, which you can do, you can pull up Claude and say, do you have an intro to Elon Musk? And it’s going to fetch our API. It’s going to find like an intro path and so on that’s going to cost you credits and that’s usage based. So that’s the pricing that’s behind the scenes of The Swarm.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 25:14
Talks about it says available on Claude.
Olivier Roth: 25:16
Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 25:17
Right.
Olivier Roth: 25:18
Yeah. So quickly people. So that’s another pivot of The Swarm too, because we built a SaaS platform initially, which we still have. You can log in, you can use it as a SaaS platform as an interface. But people want sellers, especially, they don’t want to learn a new tool. They don’t want to, they don’t want to log into a new tool. And so we built up one of the, one of the integrations with Claude where you, you have, you already have Claude, maybe you’re already using it and you can, you know, pull it up and say, ask questions in natural language, you know, prompts like, like we do every day with, with our AI sidekicks. And the questions to The Swarm MCP is going to be, do we have an intro to Elon Musk? Do we have an intro to a marketing executive at Google or whatnot? You know, Whatever.
And Claude is awesome for this, like kind of like very targeted, like asks us if you look for like a few companies or you can ask like, hey, I’m flying to New York City tomorrow. Can you look up like, who are my strongest, who are my strongest relationships that live in New York City? Or maybe like, I don’t know, the sky is the limit is like where you can, you can ask. And what’s cool is with Claude is obviously our ChatGPT and whatnot is going to The Swarm is going to find relationships. And then you can say like, cool, draft me an email, you know, and then push it to my Gmail and draft whatever. So connecting all those things together has been pretty fun and seeing how people use it to just like how people get creative with it. Agencies in particular are just kind of like.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 27:10
What have you seen as creative use cases?
Olivier Roth: 27:15
I have an agency that’s a partner called Growth Alliance, and Spencer is the CEO. They’re like an elite, kind of like RevOps like agency. So they really help their clients with like deep technical stuff related to like go-to-market. So they build like workflows to find the right accounts and reach out to them and so on. And so they have this like multi perspective thing where you, where you sort of like where you, where you’re sort of like find the buying committee at a company. So you prompt, they have a prompt that you put in Claude and you, and you get like the buying committee, who are your buyers? And then you write a message to them from their perspective, like, what do they care about? What do they like? And then we find a path with The Swarm. So they kind of like combine their like messaging prompt that creates a really great message with like, you know, intro path from The Swarm. And that’s one example.
But another one is like, you know, Pavilion. Do you know the Pavilion like community? But Pavilion is one community that’s for go to market like leaders. So you can join. There are chapters around the country. I think it’s growing like at least in the Bay area and pretty well. And one of our other agency partners used The Swarm to find potential members in the network of existing members. So you have your existing members in your chapter. He was in Austin, so you have the Austin chapter. Now, who’s going to join this thing is like people that are in the network of existing members. And so he’s so he set out to like, you know, set up The Swarm in that way. And he did a lot of like, kind of like data driven, like experiments. And he found that the conversion rate to get a new member was stronger with this relationship driven way than people filling up a form on the website. So I’m going to repeat that one.
People are filling a form on Pavilion saying like they’re interested in joining and then they convert at like, I don’t know what it was like 15%, I think. The option experiment B is like, you ask for referrals from your existing members. You say like that person here that works at the company, could you invite them to this one? The conversion rate of those asks is stronger than like an inbound lead. Like so I don’t know, I was like blowing my mind. We did a whole LinkedIn, you know, like little like LinkedIn campaign about it, to talk about it. Because that’s a creative, like, you know, use case. It just makes makes sense.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 30:18
So no, I love hearing about the use cases. It just gives, I think gets the creative juices flowing in general. So do you want to talk about and I like to Olivier, how you talk about, you know, your people’s user behavior, you’re just going with whatever their normal. If your user behavior is. Claude, let’s not make them log in. Let’s connect it to Claude. So it has your proprietary system used inside of Claude, right?
Olivier Roth: 30:46
Right. Yeah. Building in a way that like, it’s like wherever people work, of course, it takes years to build those integrations and maintain them and so on. So it was part of the challenge. But like, whatever the goal is to have the relationship data wherever it matters. So we’re building like the Salesforce integration. Now, Salesforce is a whole other animal because they have their own ways of writing the code and so on. But we’re building basically like an agent.
So, sales rep is in Salesforce looking at an account. They want to know like, what are the paths to that account? I want to accelerate my deal or I want to multi-thread into an account or whatnot. You are going to get that with The Swarm and it’s going to be baked into Salesforce. So you don’t have to like switch windows or whatnot. That’s, that’s where we’ve been. We’ve been, we’ve been trying to do. And that’s why our CTO always wants more engineers because there’s like a lot of.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 31:48
It sounds like, yeah.
Olivier Roth: 31:50
There’s a lot of fun things to build.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 31:51
What about Klarna? Can you talk about Klarna does and how do they use The Swarm?
Olivier Roth: 31:57
Yeah. Klarna is even a different flavor, which is cool. It’s like their partnership team. So it’s not the sales team, but you know, it’s the one team that sits next to them, the partnerships team that came to the founders came to The Swarm and they were using Sales Navigator. They’re in the process of switching off Sales Navigator. So I don’t want to say it’s like it’s done, but like they are using Sales Navigator to try to find intros and so on and for partnerships to sign like big partnerships. And so they are using our API so that we map their networks and the network around their partners and so on. More of a custom project and whatnot. But they use our API to, to pull the data into their own, like data lake. I mean, it’s like their data team and so on and put that in the hands of their partner team.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 33:02
So I’m a partnerships person. I go, here’s like 100 partners that I’m looking at for this particular partner. I can overlay The Swarm like, where’s my best connection path for this person? And it basically will factor in, you know, the network of, you know, whatever is showing out there, like here, this is the person who’s like the connection path mapping everything out to this company or person that I’m looking at. Right?
Olivier Roth: 33:33
That’s right. So that’s one other use case, but it’s very, very tangential to sales, obviously.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 33:40
Are people asking you a lot of questions around, okay, so now I have this. Are they asking your company a lot of questions around what’s the best messaging or best approach? Because they could call the person, you know, maybe it doesn’t matter because you’re getting a warm introduction from someone that they know, but I don’t know. Are they asking you for advice on those things or not really?
Olivier Roth: 34:03
Yeah. You know, some, I mean, it’s not that they’re asking us for advice. I guess it’s like they’re. Every company is doing it in a slightly different way, which I think is great based on their industry, you know, based on like their stage and who they’re selling to and so on. But like in general, one like best practice, I guess is you have your connectors, you have the people you’re going to ask intros to. And with The Swarm, you can see a lot of intro paths, right? And so instead of asking like one person for one intro, I like to set it up where you send like once a month, 5 to 10 names to your connector.
So for example, you have a connector who’s like an investor. Like I’ll take an example. we have, like Arjun is one of our angel investors from like back in five years ago. He’s super well connected. Guy knows everyone is always very willing. He’s a great connector. He’s a super connector, we call it. Right. And, and he’s and, and so we sent him on a regular basis, like, you know, a list of names. Because if I just say, hey, do you know Jeremy or hey, do you know Sarah there? That’s one email. That’s one bullet, so to speak, like, and instead I’m going to send him like a little list and say, hey, of, of those ten people who are you comfortable making an intro to?
And I think that’s kind of like an innovative way to do it. Of course, you can’t do it. You have to like warm yourself, warm your way to that, but you’re not going to send 100 names because that’s going to take them. But five, ten, yeah, I can scan and say, and Arjun actually tends to say like, I’m going to send the ten emails. I know those ten people. But most people are going to be like, I’m going to send 3 or 4. And that’s a win. So yeah, that’s one way to do it. Usually like email based. Ask really clear. Like, why are you asking?
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 36:13
Yeah.
Olivier Roth: 36:15
What’s the outcome? What’s the outcome at the end of the day? Are you incentivizing the person you’re asking? Like, I mean, Arjun is an investor. We’re not incentivized because if we win, he wins. You know, it’s like.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 36:27
Not everyone has a direct incentive to make an introduction. In this case, if you grow, it helps him. But in other cases, someone’s just doing it out of the goodness of their heart. I mean, I get these messages, you know, weekly. Someone’s like, hey, and maybe I know I’m not that much, but I’m always willing to help. Like if someone reaches out. This happened yesterday. Hey, Jeremy, do you know, I mean, I know you have a lot of LinkedIn connections when someone is like, I have over 20,000 LinkedIn connections. So when someone reaches out, hey, do you know, how well do you know this person? I know you know this person. Are you really being willing to make an intro? I didn’t know the person asked me that well, but I’m like, I’m always willing to connect like, but like you said, give me a specific, you know, a real specific reason why. And, you know, give me the language also, you know.
So we were just saying how you could have the best tools in the world, Olivier. But if you aren’t really good with copywriting or messaging, it falls on deaf ears. And you were saying how to be very specific with the ask. What are some best practices for again, you know, this person, it’s a warm introduction, but still like they’re busy. What are best practices to reach out so that they respond even if you do know them?
Olivier Roth: 37:49
Yeah, yeah. So we’ve been doing this for the last five years. We’ve seen it all. But I would say the best way to ask is to create a forwardable email. So it’s basically like I’m asking you and then I’m putting like something in the email below that you’re going to hit forward that’s going to have the context for the person who receives it. And for you as the person who’s making the connection. Your only job is to hit forward. And then maybe you put a few, a few words there. Hey, you want to talk to that person? Whatever. And that makes it really easy because anything you have to copy paste or like you have a long thread of emails and stuff, you just, it’s just one email, one intro.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 38:31
The least amount of effort someone has to do to do it right.
Olivier Roth: 38:37
So backing up to like what I said earlier, which is like sending a few names, like once a month, I would send like five, ten names to one of your connectors. And then if they say, yes, I can introduce you to Jeremy and Sarah. Okay. Okay, great. I’ll send you two emails, then you send one email for Intro to Jeremy and one email for intro. So we have two emails a day. Open forward, boom. Open, forward, done. So that’s just the simple mechanics of it.
The content of the email should be, yeah, short, you know, clear. If you ask once a month, they have the context, but it should be clear for the person who’s receiving it to and, you know, personalized if it’s like, I mean, unless it’s like so obvious that you know, that they need to talk to you like, but personalize it obviously to, to, to them at least a little bit. And, you know, you’re, you’re dealing with like people’s relationships. So like you’re, you’re basically like, whatever you can do to protect the connectors, social capital, it’s your job to do so.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 39:45
Not only protect it, but, but add to their social capital, depending on what it is. And, you know, I make probably 5 to 30 introductions every single day. And I like doing that. And if it’s, you know, I want whatever someone’s asking if it’s a give like, so for me, if I’m wanting someone to come on the podcast, for instance, that’s a, I consider a give to someone’s network, right? So it depends on what the ask or give is to the other individual. Like if you’re asking for money, it’s a little bit different. Like, hey, Olivier, I want you to come on my podcast, just a different ask. But I always look at how, what’s the best way to send a give to someone, not an ask, right? Even if maybe eventually you want to do business with someone or not, or but forgetting putting that aside, I always look at how do I send something to someone to help them? That’s it. I’m not asking for anything.
So I have found, personally, I love your thing because someone did mention this on the podcast before. It’s like, hey, you know, no one, even people are too busy sometimes copy and paste, so give them something they could forward. And the other thing someone had mentioned before, I don’t know who it was. And I’m like the no, the zero work intro. So a lot of times I’ll be talking to someone and you know, Olivier, you’ll be like, oh yeah, you should totally have David on the podcast or whatever. I’ll go, great. Instead of saying, do you mind introducing me? I would say, hey, do you mind if I reach out and mention your name? And then you don’t have to do anything. So I like the zero work, but some people, I mean, like, hey, I’m happy to make an intro, but sometimes like, listen, I don’t want you to do any more work.
Olivier Roth: 41:40
Yeah, that’s cool to zero intro. I’ve never heard of it. And for, like, for inviting them to speak. That’s great. That’s where it ties into what you do, like the podcasts, which is another way to build a relationship. So I love that. Yeah. That’s cool. What I would like, what I see sometimes and I would never do is like, put like, you know, put like two people in the same thread and say, I want to introduce you guys. And you’re like.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 42:08
There’s no context. I always am a big fan too, of a double opt in intro. If that’s the case, like ask both. Like I introduce my guests a lot, right? And I will always ask because even if they want to meet, sometimes they’re just busy with stuff. So I’ll always, hey, here’s the context. You want to meet this person? Hey Tim, here’s Olivier. Do you want to meet this person before I make an intro? Because people are busy, right?
Olivier Roth: 42:39
Yeah, yeah. Respect their time and so on. And it’s your network. So it’s about like, you know, giving and taking and nurturing it over time. So what we do is we build a technology to accelerate the finding of the path. And then like the rest is on the humans to act on. So we try to stay away from like just generating everything with AI. And then you hit send, you know, you can generate some context and stuff with AI, but like if you don’t personalize it and if you don’t like sort of respect other people’s time.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 43:26
This is not a spray and pray method. I mean, these are high level relationships that people have and they want to treat them as such. You know.
Olivier Roth: 43:36
The opposite of like, yeah, the opposite of cold outbound. Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 43:43
I have one last question. First of all, thanks for sharing your lesson, your journey. It’s really cool what you’ve created. The Swarm. People can check it out: TheSwarm.com.
Just my last question is some of the, and this could be, you know, resources. It could be distant resources, like books that you’ve learned from mentors that you’ve gotten from books or podcasts, or on the flip side, just business mentors throughout your journey that have been helpful and give helpful advice. Those could be investors. They could be colleagues who are some of the, you know, resources that have been important to you.
Olivier Roth: 44:19
The one book that comes to mind is The Laws of Simplicity by John Maeda, which is like a book that really sort of helped me. Like it’s a, it’s a short book.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 44:33
And it better be if it’s called The Laws of Simplicity, it’s like a thousand page book.
Olivier Roth: 44:38
Like it’s, it fits in your pocket, but it’s like ten principles on how to you know, how to organize your thoughts, your ideas, your products, your business model, your pricing model, you know, all the things that are that can, that can grow out of control, right? And it’s, yeah, a lot of this, a lot of the mantras and stuff that I have actually coming from this little book. So it was like a key read for me, like very, very sort of early on. And it’s like, yeah, design, technology and business. So I read it when I was like running Timelapse. And a lot of stuff applies to design and I think like a lot of stuff, but also honestly, frankly, to, to, to, to life to a certain extent, like. And not shy away from complexity, but like sort of like organize it.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 45:38
And I just bought it on audible. So thank you.
Olivier Roth: 45:42
Yeah, yeah. It’s great. It’s very, very actionable. Like one of the most actionable books I’ve read. Like.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 45:48
This is great. Yeah.
Olivier Roth: 45:52
And you know, we lean like, as far as like mentors, like we lean on our investors a lot. I mean, some of those guys have like built companies before. So we are lucky to have on our cap table, like really great investors like Kevin Mahaffey is the Founder of Lookout. It’s like a mobile security company that’s giving us like tremendous feedback. Arjun, I mentioned is like giving us fantastic intros, just opening their networks and so like mentoring us along the way. So to me, like that was kind of like an eye opener that when you fundraise, like you don’t just get the money, you get like, you know, they call it like smart money. You don’t just get the check, you’re going to get a ton of advice if you ask. And then relationships, the network and continuous support, you know, on the journey. So yeah, we turn to our investors, especially our investors, like angel investors and VC’s as well. But like are very often for advice.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz: 47:06
First of all, thank you. Thanks for sharing your knowledge journey. People check out TheSwarm.com, check out more episodes on Inspired Insider and we’ll see everyone next time. Thanks so much.
Olivier Roth: 47:18
Thanks, Jeremy.
