Search Interviews:

Jeremy Weisz 7:03

or flight response?

Martin Greif 7:04

Yeah, that’s exactly right. So what happens is, when there’s movement on a website, you know, that causes what we call cognitive friction and interrupt your thought process. And and whatever path you have people going down, they’re going to interrupt and go, what’s that? What’s that. And so I’m not saying all movement is bad movement is wonderful, like on a on an ad somewhere, because you’re on somebody else’s site, you want to interrupt their pattern on somebody else’s site. But on your site, what you really want to do is you really want to engage somebody so that they’re, they’re getting the story. So there’s some things on here that are a little off. Now, we did pick the animation here, to try to show what we’re doing. So it tells us story in itself. But way too many times people put animation for no apparent reason. And if we scroll down a little further, actually, it already did it. This this rock, there’s a rocket ship on the screen, that rocket ship kind of flies in from the side that has no value to it. Well, there’s no value in the rocket ship flying in from the side or some of the animation. But But we did it because if you don’t do things like that, people think oh, well, you know, this is dated, right? But the first we have to show them yes, you can do that. And then we tell them why they don’t want to do that. So yeah,

Jeremy Weisz 8:25

I liked that part, actually, when I was looking at your website this week, and I saw this, because the the animation does the animated GIF does tell a story of your expertise. So if you’re watching it, you can see they’re crossing things out on a web page, they’re pointing things where where they would reposition them, because this is maybe it’s gonna convert better here, they’re crossing things out. So I liked that that animation and showed me your expertise, like, Oh, what is that? What are they doing? What are they crossing out there?

Martin Greif 8:54

You know, right. And that’s the difference between that and let’s say, the rocket ship, because if you’re doing some kind of animation or movement, please, please, please have it add value to the visitor. Okay. And, I mean, there’s some exceptions to the animation rule. It’s not or the movement rule. It’s not a hard and fast rule for everything. So for example, if your site is inspirational, or if your site you know, is is, you know, you’re you’re selling like skiing trips, you want to show like maybe a video of some skiing, there’s things you might want to do that make sense. So it’s not a hard and fast rule. But there has to be a real reason why you’re doing okay. All right. Yeah, I’ll get I’ll get off my soapbox. No,

Jeremy Weisz 9:38

let’s not keep going. I mean, talk about some of the components on here, because I know I’ve watched other I’m curious, what, what do users do, because sometimes what we want them to do on our site, and what they actually do are two different things. And that’s what you help people with. And I know you’ve talked about different tools like mouseflow, where you could actually watch them. What have you found When people go to this page, what do they tend to do, or maybe the old version, where they tend to do from the analytics and how you changed it to what we’re looking at now,

Martin Greif 10:10

well interest that there are some changes. So for example, in our menu, alright, and our menu is simplified, it says services about us our clients and resources, that’s basically the menu, right? And so that, that is the rule of three to five. So people can process between three to five things and or they can get overwhelmed. And so we always try to help make sure that the menus make sense for people. But in our analytics, we saw that the number one pages people went to was services. And the number two was the About Us Now in the old site, the About Us, they weren’t in this order at all right. So we basically changed the order based on what people were actually doing. Now, there’s also some other best practices on here, in addition to letting them go down the path that they would want to, there’s a phone number on there, real companies have a phone number in the top right hand corner. And I’ve actually said this to people multiple times that, you know, if you’ve got a phone number, and it’s in the top left hand corner, and I don’t see it, well, if I don’t see it, it doesn’t exist, right. And so people are expecting to see it in a certain way. And the same is true for mobile, they expect to see the mobile icon, the Phone icon, and then we’ve got a call to action speak with a conversion expert. All right, that’s what we do. And that’s what makes sense. Also, underneath our logo, it says, a tagline of conversion rate optimization. And the reason that that’s there is it doesn’t matter what page you land on, you’re going to have our logo and our tagline underneath it. So you’re not confused about what we do, right? A lot of times you land on a website, or from an SEO perspective, and you land on some page, you’re like, well, what is this? Right? And the thing is, when somebody lands on a website, they ask themselves three questions. Am I in the right place? How do I feel about this? And what am I supposed to do here? And if you’re not answering those three questions, like, in milliseconds, you’re lost? And because the Am I in the right place? Question is partially dependent on the upstream messaging, and you don’t control what page they may land on, you have to answer that question on every page. Am I in right place? Yes, I’m looking for conversion rate optimization. Okay, I’m in the right place. And then the second is, how do I feel about it? Well, you’ll notice on our website, we’ve got a phone number. And we’ve tested this, I can’t tell you how many times Alright, phone number is the largest trust symbol on the face of the planet. In every country, we’ve tested it, all right, and they people expected real companies have a phone number. And for anybody listening, if you’re saying Well, I don’t want phone calls, guys, please have a go to a nice voicemail system where you give somebody some love, right? It will increase the number of calls you get, but will also increase your conversions. Because you are a real company. Alright, so and you’ll also notice trusted by over 1500 clients, including, so that’s a trust bar. Alright, and that shows that and you know, so we’re giving people reasons to do it. So how do I feel about it? It’s a modern design that’s got trust, I feel pretty good. And what am I supposed to do here, you’ll notice we train people with colors. The, the orange with the black is our primary call to color call to action. So people know. And we train them with colors, click here, click here, then we’ve got a secondary call to action, which has got you know, the orange on it with Anna transparents. So, so by training people with colors, no matter what page they’re on, as they go deeper and deeper in the site, subconsciously, they will know Oh, I should click on this, or I should do this. And so we’re training people, this is all best practices. And here’s, you know, when I review a site, and we work with them, it is not been unusual for us to spend literally 30 minutes not scrolling on their site at all just talking about what we see in that top frame. And, and and sometimes it feels like I’m beating them over the head with the dead fish. You know, I mean, I feel bad but you know,

Jeremy Weisz 14:16

it’s all it’s all in in for love. You know, it’s all to help

Martin Greif 14:20

them. It really is all I wish I can I share one story. Go ahead. Okay, so I was talking to a client who will remain nameless before they were client. And I was on I was deep in there the review looking and something happened I it’s something some weird thing, and I went, Oh my god, that is the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen. It just I just it just came out. I just you couldn’t talk that way to people or you just came out of me. I was like, Oh my God. And and so I’m continuing on. And you know, we’re deeper into sight. And it did it again. I went oh my god, you did it again. I said if this happens again and they will St. Louis, I said, I’m getting on a plane, I’m flying to St. Louis. I’m rolling up a newspaper, I’m whacking you in the nose. Okay, this is bad. Don’t do this. This is bad. So we recorded that we sent them the recording. About two weeks later, they called back and they said, We want to hire you. Okay. They said, We played the recording for everybody in the company, about 50% of the company, listen to the recording, and they had like, 120 people, and they said, like, 50% actually listened to it. And they said, We need to hire the guy that’s gonna fly to St. Louis, roll up a newspaper, whack us. And then we got a really nice deal out of that Nelson. It just, I mean, I was, I was just being real. And I was so surprised by what I saw. It just escaped me. Right? I wasn’t trying to be mean, it

Jeremy Weisz 15:49

was popping up was it

Martin Greif 15:50

I you know, it was some kind of weird overlay that was popping up this Oh, so you know, how we talk about Don’t interrupt me and don’t make, you know, in the process, and that, and cognitive friction on a page going there. And it’s like, they will go, it was almost like they were talking about subscribe to our service, and you’ll get this and all sudden, blue banana. It’s like, what it was, like this weird thing that popped up, it made no sense whatsoever. And it probably was some executive in their company. But you know what we need to tell them about this? No, no. Anyway, I get carried away.

Jeremy Weisz 16:32

I love it. Are there other so as you see here, I love that you you said the users are going to services, you could see our services is nice in orange, you can see that’s where you are pointing people to go or speak with the conversion expert at the top. And you’ve all you know, all these elements, although it’s very clean, and it looks great. It there’s a thought out reason for all of these things.

Martin Greif 16:58

And tested those thought out, it’s tracked, it’s measured, and it’s tested. Right? And because at the end of the day, and then the other thing, if you’re not measuring things, you can improve them. And it’s amazing how many times we and we fell into the same category, we had analytics, you know, but in the old days, we were so busy, we never looked at them. How embarrassing, is that? Right? So now there’s people dedicated to actually making our site better and better and better. And we’ve not only made the website better, we’ve actually made our blog better, which is almost impossible for people to do. So we do on the blog, what we call content for conversion. And and so so it’s a very different kind of thought process, you know, on a blog, and we’ve actually done this for a number of clients. And you can pick, pick the scarcity, marketing one, for example. Article, you know, yeah. So there’s an article that you’re clicked on scarcity in the marketing, alright. And it’s part of the persuasion series. Now, here’s what we learned. Okay. On the right hand side, we’ve got an ad. All right. For us, you know, for you know, my actually, it turns out to be for my book right now. All right. But in here, what we learned is if you give people a summary, okay, we tell them how long it’s going to be to read it. And we say it’s about five minutes, we tell them it’s part of the series. And then we’ve got some bullet points down below. So you know, what they’ve got that’s actually allows people to click on them to go to anchors within there. As you scroll through this, what we found is more people are making it all the way through the bottom of these articles than they were before that we were looking at where the drop off points worth 25% 50% 75 and 100. And as we scroll down, things are bolded things are bulleted. I think there’s reasons for all of that. And because people scan. Alright, and then stop right there, stop, scroll back up a little bit. You’re quick with the mouse there, Jeremy. So you scrolled past, you know, a call to action in the middle, where it says grow your business to improving conversion rates, optimal optimization expertise, subscribe to our email. So in the middle of the article, we have a little ad, because we’ve earned the right at that point to ask for something we’ve already given them. And we spent a lot of time in our articles, we’ve already given them high quality content. So we’ve earned the right to ask for something. And then if we continue scrolling down, right, and we get, you can go to the bottom, you can see this is this long, you can see again, things are bolded things are numbered, right. We’ve made it really easy to read. We’ve got examples on here. So people can scroll through this Gannett really easily. And then when they get to the very, very bottom of this. All right, there’s another call to action. Which says subscribe to the email. Now we’ve tested different calls to action, we’ve tested, you know, everything from talk to us to, to subscribe. And depending upon the type of Article it is, we have different calls to action. That makes sense. So when you’re doing a blog post, or even any content heavy page, what I would ask people to think of is give before you get, give value, provide value. And then if you’ve provided value, you’ve earned the right to ask for something, right. And that’s what we’ve done. I will tell you our conversion rate on our blog has gone up, our bounce rate has lowered and our engagement on these pages has gone up. So again, we’re tracking everything. Now most people don’t track their blogs, we’ve learned that, you know, but but there is gold in your blog. If you do it right. Now, will the blog ever convert the same way that your main pages will? No. But if you put the right calls to action to it, you can actually get them to sign up for something and potentially drip market, which actually goes to something else that you said, Jeremy, and I’m sorry, I’m on the I feel like you’re on a roll. This is like a monologue. Johnny, you know, here’s Marty. But it’s the issue here is, is when when you’re you put the right offer in place here, they’re going to subscribe to it Alright, or sign up for if you put the wrong warfare in place. They’re not so on your website, if you if you think about giving them some high quality stuff, and then have the offer makes sense. So this on this page here is all about content. We’re offering them more content, right? So it just makes sense. More of the same. Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Weisz 21:52

If you’re looking at this, if you’re not, I’ll describe it. But you can see how they describe the subscribe because a lot of different ways do this. I’m sure they’ve tested this, which is subscribe to the site, tuners weekly email, and then there’s a well, why should i subscribe, and they have grow your business exponentially with proven conversion rate optimized optimization expertise. And then instead of just having like a subscribe button, they actually describe it more with the button that says get weekly strategies, techniques and offers. Yep, yeah. So this is you could check out if you go to or if you’re looking at this, you can go to site, and then search some of the great content they have in this one in particular is scarcity, marketing, e-commerce, how fear is part of the conversion process. So they have some a lot of great content here, you can check it out. Um, I love that. All right, thanks for sharing that in one thing. So you, you know, we walk through this top page, and people probably can focus a lot of time and energy just on the above the fold of their website, what they were looking at when someone clicks. And I love for you, I’m gonna go down because the next thing I want to talk about is some of the i want to i what stuck out to me was a Coastal Insurance 78.5% increase in leads, and we’re gonna walk through their site in a second. But any people love to hear about different tools and software. Are there any other any recommendations out there, that people that you like, and people can test out?

Martin Greif 23:23

Well, for conversion rate optimization, well, the Let’s start with the base, you have to have your your analytics installed, and installed correctly, I can’t tell you how many times we see analytics, but they’ve got no goals in them, or they are on an e-commerce site. They don’t have e-commerce enabled. So if you don’t know what’s happening on your website, I don’t know how you’re ever going to fix it. So step number one, I’m begging you all if you’re listening to this, please, please, please, please have your analytics set up or right track what’s going on on your website. And it’s not a one and done. Okay? Is it because your pages change your goals change, you know, you’ve got new landing pages. So you want to make sure that you’ve got Google I will go use Google for now Google Analytics, Google Tag Manager and the Google Search Console. Alright, so so if you use the Google suite of tools, alright, that will give you a really good look at what’s going on in your site. And then above and beyond that, depending upon the volume of conversions you get per day, you might be able to do testing. And if you’re going to go with the testing route, you can use a free tool like Google Optimize, they’ve got a free version of it. Alright, and it’s, it is obviously integrated with the other tools. You could buy, or subscribe to a tool like, you know, Optimizely or Visual Website Optimizer. So there’s plenty of testing tools out there but Let’s talk about the basics, the testing before I answered the rest of your question, Jeremy, to test, you have to have a minimum of 10 conversion actions per day, per device type. So what do I mean by that? All right. So your conversion action should be somebody filled out a lead form, or somebody bought something or somebody subscribed to something, whatever it is on your site, I don’t care what it is, it’s the end conversion action, if you’ve got 10 of those per day, and by device type, I mean, desktop versus mobile, because they react differently, you can test but the test, you can do a what’s known as an A B test where you, you put up one version versus another, and it’s probably going to run for about 30 days, unless you’ve got you’ve knocked it out of the park, because it takes a while to get to what’s known as statistical significance. So the you know, you actually have a winner there, alright. And I will not that I want to make it tougher. But in a perfect world, you’ve got more than 10 per day, because you’ll get a significant faster. And if I really want to be difficult, not that that’s a goal. But I really like to see 10 conversions per day, per device type per channel. Alright, I’ve added another thing, because your organic traffic acts differently than does your PPC traffic or your social traffic. So it’s all about understanding that user intent. So in a perfect world, you’ve got enough to do it by the, you know, Kennedy per device type, you know, per channel, you can test. Now, if you don’t have that, you can use what we call micro conversions, which is they get another step further in your process. But that’s probably a discussion for a whole nother day. Right. The next level of tools that you need on here, is it’s really important to have some type of recording or heat mapping tool. And you mentioned one earlier Mouseflow, there’s, there’s Lucky Orange, there’s Hotjar, there’s there’s a bunch of these Now, here’s the thing. And all of the people that have these tools will hate me when I say this, but these tools eat up resources. Alright, so your what your best to do is you turn them on, you run, you turn them off, you turn them on, you run, you know, for however long you turn them off. And the reason I say turn them off, is because Google will penalize you for speed. And if these things are eating up too much, you know, you could get penalized. So you want to get your data. So I’m not saying you only Run the tool, and then you get rid of the tool. But it’s good to have the tool for a long period of time things change. So I would really love to see that. All right, is that some type of you know, heat mapping recording tool. The next tool on the list is some type of exit pop. And I’m going to talk about exit pop versus, you know, just an entry pop. And we actually did a, you know, I think there’s a post on this entry pops are bad. Alright, because an entry pop, basically, I’ve gotten your site and something pops up. I don’t know who you are. I don’t know if I like you or trust you. And you’re shouting at me Alright, with, hey, give me something No, no. And we’ve had people say to us, well, when we put an entry pop, it improved our conversion rate? And the answer is that because your underlying website was awful, if you had a high converting website, you wouldn’t have an entry, then the statistics would show that it’d be worse. So if your your your angry pop made things better, you have to fix your site. It’s that simple. Now, exit pops, time pops. Those are all make a ton of sense. cart abandonment, all of that makes sense. Even on pops in. It’s not just an e-commerce, you’ve got a forum, people are filling out a form. And if you’ve got too many fields, what fields are they bailing on? You need to know these things, okay. Or did they get to the very bottom? You know, you talked, you talked about our call to action making sense. We’ve actually tested calls to action, where people fill out a form and they get to the bottom and what is the call to action? submit? I got it. We’ve tested this unless your visitor is a fan of like 50 Shades of Grey. They don’t want to submit Okay, you submitted. Now you’re laughing me Jeremy. I’m telling you, it’s funny. Well, no, I’m serious once in a while submit works, but for the most part, you’re better off to have the call to action be what they get. Okay.

Jeremy Weisz 29:33

All right. Yeah, no, I love it because it’s so when you say it, it’s so obvious but we just kind of default to what the default is sometimes.

Martin Greif 29:40

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Jeremy Weisz 29:42

So thanks for I love that. Thanks for sharing those Marty selected work so we’re here we see Coastal Insurance. You know, if you’re on their website, you scroll down on SiteTuners, you see Darwin’s Pad, BBQ Guys, Bevels or shovels bevels and the Coastal insurance, I thought we’d stick there. And it is 70. It says 78.5 increase in leads and PPC landing page tasks. So I pulled up their page here for us to for you to kind of make a few comments on.

Martin Greif 30:16

Sure. Well, let’s start with they’ve been a client for about five years now. And when they first came to us, they were pretty small and they’re not. Today, let me tell you, this is a, this is a massive company now. But when they first came to us, and I was working with the owner, I couldn’t charge them for our advice. And so we made a deal. I gave him free advice. And he’s up us up in Long Island. And so I asked him to send me a dozen bagels because we’re down in Florida and you can’t get good bagels in Florida. So he sent bagels with the schmear and everything. Are you

Jeremy Weisz 30:56

from New York?

Martin Greif 30:57

I’m from New Jersey. Okay. I my wife was born and raised in in Manhattan. So yeah, so I would like your baby. Yeah, so yeah. And pizza. You can’t get good pizza in Florida. You know, sorry, Floridian But anyway, so. So we got the bagels, and I think I think, you know, you

Jeremy Weisz 31:15

got the better end of the deal. I mean, the food

Martin Greif 31:20

the way to my heart, let me tell you real simple. Anyway, so we, we I gave him some some advice. He took the advice, and he got an immediate result. And then he came back and said, Listen, I need more advice I need to pay you. So we did a small project for him. And then he moved to a retainer with us. All right. And we we’ve been he’s been on retainer for forever. And we’ve gone from from, I guess, three site designs back to this current site. So the case study is on the middle design, where when we got to do the redesign, it increased his conversion rate by like 78%, more people were converting, and we not only did conversions on the main conversion pages, we also worked on his SEO pages, he was really good with SEO. But we do something called SEO for conversion, which I alluded to in our blog. So we added in the in the in the SEO pages, all sorts of conversion factors to get people to take action. So and then on his PPC landing pages, we do what we call PPC for conversion, where again, it’s all about lining that user intent. So this newest version here is got everything you would potentially ask for for conversion. And so if we scroll to the very top, and again, people ask themselves three questions when they land on the page, am I right place, you know, how do I feel about this? What am I supposed to do here, and you’ll notice it’s got a phone number up in the top right hand corner, it’s and we know what pages they go to. And then we made it easy home insurance Made Easy, protect your home at the best price. And then we’ve got what you get last year insurance costs up to 30% get superior rates in minutes. Here’s right and then there’s a trust bar Trusted Choice. He’s got an A plus rating for the Better Business Bureau, he was a 2020 insurance winner, you know, and then we got another trust bar below compared top quotes from top rated companies, travelers, MetLife. And all. So we’re using other company’s logos as a level of trust. And then the call to action block is get homeowners insurance go because that’s what you get. And the Anto the title of the block makes sense. And then let us find the right insurance for you. And we’ve minimized all the things we asked him for because it used to be a lot more and then get the quote now. So if they don’t do that, and they scroll down because they some people want to read a lot of people don’t even scroll anymore, they just fill it out. And then homeowners insurance is 1231 request a code two, we shot for you three, choose the best option for you. And then why homeowners insurance. You’ll notice there’s another trust bar as seen on CNBC, CNN Money, ABC News, The Wall Street Journal, more trust, right? And then why coastal insurance. And you’ll notice as we scroll down, there’s the why. And then there’s more trust bars and then get a quote another bite at the apple. Okay, because we’ve earned the right to do that. And as we scroll down a little bit further, we now have verified Google reviews because people love him that we put the reviews up there, right, more trust areas we serve again, and so they that makes me feel good that they’re in my area, right? And I’ll tell you a story about this. We, we were designing all of this. And we’ve done things for impasse. But when we did the redesign, we redesigned the homepage, we redesign the homeowners insurance page, we did the fun surance and we did one of each and we did a high value home insurance page. And if you go to the high value page and you look at the what’s on the screen here, you’ve got the really nice picture designed for New York’s finest homes, a million plus, it’s got trust on it, and so on. And he this design actually helped inform the rest of the design for the website. And the last page that I would show you on this, because again, this is stuff we’ve tested, people go to the About Us page, I don’t know if you’ve previously loaded, but yeah, the About Us page. And because I’ve had a relationship with these people for so long, I actually wrote the words myself, even though we have copywriters, and we put in our core values, relationships, matter of trust is earned. Integrity is own reward, everybody wins. These are the bullet points. And then it’s, again, God trust who we are. And when you scroll down a little bit further, we then talk about all of those things, relationships matter. Trust is earned, why those things matter. And people read this, and then we scroll further. And as companies we work with, so we’re using these other companies as trust. And then we go even further down on the page. And the call to action is we’d love to earn your business, right, that’s the call to action on the contact, not fill out this form. We’d love to earn the business now below it is fill out the form. But the title is we’d love to earn your business. And then one of the things that we’re really proud of is you scroll a little bit further. And we tell all of our clients to do this, if you’re hiring, you know, have something there. We’d love to have you join our team, we’re growing, here’s what we’re looking for. And so it shows that the real they’re growing and they care about people this matters, right? Anyway, I’m probably again, I love my horse, no, his conversion rate boosted yet again. Now the old design that’s in the case study that we did. In fairness, that old design worked really well years ago, but it got a little dated, you got to refresh your site, people expect things to look different. Now,

Jeremy Weisz 36:58

thank you. Marty that was great. And I will probably have to re listen to this to pick up some of your you know, the great tips here, I wanted to also bring up Rise25 and have you you can you can, you don’t have to pull punches. And if you scream, I’m gonna fly to Chicago and hit you with a paper that’s totally fine with me. So, here’s what we’re seeing it at Rise25. And I don’t know what he’s gonna say here. We have not talked about this at all. So

Martin Greif 37:30

you’re looking a little nervous, they’re here,

Jeremy Weisz 37:33

I would love for you to rip this to shreds. I’m here, I’m looking forward to this.

Martin Greif 37:38

Okay, so you’ve got your logo Rise25 in the in the top left hand corner, and underneath, you’ve got we’re hiring, which is nice. Okay, which is great. But I would really like to know a little bit more about what you do in six to 10 words, if possible. And the reason I would like that underneath there or around there is I don’t know what page I’m going to land on. Right? So if I land on your homepage, you’ve got a really nice banner, it says what you do, right, I get it. But what if I land on? You know, like, your course page or your dream? 100? Are you telling me what you do on each and every page? Or are you assuming that they kind of got their from page to page to page? And Jeremy, you can’t do that? Yeah, you don’t know where they came from? Okay, totally. So I don’t know what your six to 10 words would be. And there’s a lot of effort that goes into that. But you want to have now for us, it was easy. Three words conversion rate optimization, right? For you, or maybe a little bit harder. All right. But at the end of the day, if you do that underneath there, no matter what page they’re gonna land on. And then here’s the thing, I don’t know, without scrolling enough about you yet. For all I know, you’re some guy in a cave in like the mountains, you know, going to go get my credit card, you’re some evil genius going. I don’t know you yet, right? And you’ve got no trust on you. You’ve got you’ve got no phone number or real companies ever. Phone number top right hand corner, I understand you got a contact thing, but I want to see the phone number, right. Or if I hover over contacts, the phone number pops up something, but I got nothing. And then how you know calling b2b businesses. Okay, that’s nice. How any b2b business can create a referral and client pipeline, the rise 25 dream 100 study connects you to your ideal client. Okay. Free Training is one of those, get more referrals, schedule a call with us now. All right, fine. But here’s the thing. how long you’ve been in business? How many people have you helped? How many, you know? So what I would have loved to see and I’ll make this up because I don’t know your numbers, join 1000 companies worldwide who have increased their pipeline to the tune of $2 billion. Okay, I am again, I don’t know. I mean, if you if you’re working with people in their pipeline, and you get from them what the value of their pipeline is, and you put that in And I and you’ve got something that says, you know, join, you know, join 100 companies and six continents across six continents who generated an additional billion dollars in business. Again, I’m putting all of it together in here. When I go here, I’m going, Oh, these are the guys. Right? I don’t know if you’re the guys right now. All I know is it’s a website. There’s no trust. And I don’t know that you you know, this is what you’ve got is what we call marketing. Happy, Happy duck. Okay, the Rise25 dream. 100 strategy connects you to your ideal client. Yeah, that’s nice. Okay, but you didn’t prove it to me, right. So,

Jeremy Weisz 40:37

we take in 100%.

Martin Greif 40:38

Alright, so so then without scrolling, free training, get more referrals? Okay, schedule a call. Now, I didn’t do this. When I looked at your I looked at your other site. Jeremy’s I haven’t looked at the I haven’t seen this. So we’re both doing this live. So click on free training for me. Okay. All right. And so it’s taken a second to get there. All right. So here’s, I don’t even know where to begin. So this is the kind of thing are you surprised I’m going to fly to Chicago, roll up a newspaper and whack you in the nose with it. Here’s the problem with this. All right. I was on your website, which looked a certain way. You took me off your website to another website? I don’t know if I’m in the right place. I don’t know. You know, you know, I don’t know what this is. You know, I don’t see your branding anywhere on here. I was like, I was like, What happened? Okay, they it wasn’t a virus. And it took me to like a thing that’s gonna, you know, feel my information. How I feel here, Jeremy. I mean, seriously, does? Do you think I’m gonna feel good about this page? It looks absolutely nothing like the previous page. I

Jeremy Weisz 41:51

know, you want to see it? You know, some type of continuity? fun thing? Yeah.

Martin Greif 41:57

Yeah, don’t surprise me. This is the kind of surprise that that that like, kills, kills conversion. Okay. So yeah, you either do one of a couple things. If you can brand this better on this page, so that it matches, great. If you can’t brand it, have either a pop up that tells you that I’m going to, you know, our you know, webinar and tell me what’s going to happen. So I’m not surprised or haven’t go to an internal page and embedded in your internal page. Those are your three choices. But one of your choices is not to do what you’re doing. Alright, let’s go back to your website, because that was so much fun. Alright, let’s go back to schedule a call. And I can’t wait to see what this does. Let’s see. Okay, up pops a video. And so you want them to watch a video first. Okay. So on the previous page, so bear with me one second. So click on the previous page, the call to action was schedule a call with us. That’s what you promised? scheduled? That was the promise, right? schedule a call with us. We go to the next page. And it’s like, Listen to this. What? I’m sorry, I wanted to schedule a call with you. What is this? Okay. And, and And why is that? Where is it about scheduling the call. As a matter of fact, you don’t even have to schedule a call with us thing until like kind of a bot, you know, it’s hidden on the top a little bit too. and book a call. And by the way, book, a call is different from schedule a call. So you’re using different words, you’ve hidden it. Can you go back to our website just for a second, okay. And can so can you go to click the speak with a conversion expert. Right. And so, the call to action on our site is speak with a conversion expert, right. And you’ll notice the title of the page when you land here is speak with a conversion expert. Right? And so and I know it’s taking a little bit of time, because this is my internet. I know it’s okay, it is what it is. But you’ll notice we get a trust but ready to get better than that. Here’s yours, we tell you what you’re going to get. Okay. As you scroll up, the title matches what was promised, we tell you what you’re going to get right. So there’s no confusion whatsoever. This page is killing it. killing it. Right. Now compare that to yours. I have to like what it’s like if there’s a complete disconnect of what was promised. Okay, yeah, what is delivered now I understand what you’re trying to do here. But this really should have been, you know, this

Jeremy Weisz 44:51

should be maybe should it go something like this, it should just go to something like that.

Martin Greif 44:56

Well, that’s actually the next step in our process. work. goes to the calendar. gotta tell me what I’m going to get if I’m going to schedule a call yet, because a lot of people, here’s the thing when we’ve tested this, if you don’t tell me what I’m going to get, then what’s going to happen is I may or may not book the call. But if you tell me what I’m going to get in my call, I will feel better. And so your completion rate on the booking will go up. Does that make sense? Jeremy? Yep, totally. So you’ve got stuff in there, but it’s all in the wrong place. Yeah. All right.

Jeremy Weisz 45:29

It’s in the wrong order. Right.

Martin Greif 45:32

Yeah. And then, and then, yeah, let’s go back to your homepage. All right. So let’s, by the way, is this helpful for you, I

Jeremy Weisz 45:42

think, totally helpful. It’s great. It’s fantastic.

Martin Greif 45:45

Okay. All right. So so we scroll down a little bit, and you say we help a b2b clients get more? So that’s what you do. Right? So actually scroll up a little bit, a little bit further. Okay. All right. So you’re not connecting with my pain here. Alright. So you’re using we help b2b clients. This is what we call the opera School of marketing. It’s all about me, me, me, me, me, I want to tell you about me. I don’t care about you, right. So we don’t want to do the opera School of marketing. So what we really want to do is frame this for them. Okay. Are you looking to get more? Are you a b2b company looking to get more clients? All right, you know, how are you engaging with your clients? You know, and then you can say the the statement, but it’s got to be about them first, right? It’s not about you first, it’s always about them first. And if you use that, then yeah, and then you here’s the next thing you do that just drives me nuts on here. Yes. When you scroll down a little bit further. Okay. So you got this video, right. And it’s a it’s Rise25. It’s got a little description, Rise25 podcasting discussion on IRC, June 2019. So, how long is the video?

Jeremy Weisz 47:09

And how would I know? I don’t know until I click on it. Yeah. Okay.

Martin Greif 47:12

And what am I going to learn in that video? Actually, the point. So, if you’re going to have a video, alright, pre sell me on why I want to watch it and what I’m going to learn. Right. So and I know we didn’t plan this in advance, but if you went to another client of ours, Heller Tax Grievance.

Jeremy Weisz 47:40

Yeah. What is it called?

Martin Greif 47:42

Heller, H E. LL. ER. Tax grievance. Oh, actually, it showed up? It was it was below there. When you were doing it. Heller tax grievance. There is now now I’m sorry, that might have. Yeah, there you go. Click. So this is an extremely high converting site, okay. And it’s loading and doing its thing. It’s going to take a second or two here. And so but look at his video. All right, that you’ve got here, how we can reduce your taxes and property taxes, learn in 60 seconds. How does the process work? Is there any confusion about what it is what I’m going to learn how long it’s going to take? And look at all the trust on here. And luckily, you have nothing to lose for your taxes, pay no upfront fees continue. I mean, honest to God, if you’re in Long Island, and you don’t call Heller tax grievance. There’s something wrong with you. Okay, look at all that. I mean, this man works his tail off and is killing it for his clients. And it’s clear, that’s what’s happening on his website. Now, if we go back to yours, and contrast that real quick. And that was an exit path. It wasn’t an entry pop on his it was an exit. So I got these videos. And why do I want to you know, you know, why do I want to, you know, go to watch that video. What am I gonna learn what’s in it for me? You got to always answer the question, what’s in it for me? Because right now, I basically get to see, guys, yakking kind of look like they’re friendly. Maybe I’ll watch I don’t know.

Jeremy Weisz 49:27

I’m not trying to be great. I love this. Okay, I love the feedback. I appreciate it. Okay, you know, we all have a lot to learn from you, Marty. I really appreciate it I’m gonna have to go back and listen to it and send it to everyone so they can they can learn from from our mistakes and wants to correct these mistakes. And I have one last question Marty before we before we end and I just want to encourage everyone to go to And check out more about what they’re working on what they’re doing, check out their blog. And if you have questions, you know, obviously it’s it’s there, speak with a conversion expert. It’s right there. If you want to check it out, and check out other episodes of Inspired Insider and check out Rise25. My last question is, from, you know, about? Yeah, I don’t know, it was my last question. But it’s like, I will make it my last question. But there are two, I always love to hear about and one is just quickly some of your favorite resources and books. And because I was listening to another episode you’ve done on How to Win Friends & Influence People is one of your favorites. And, and I want to hear that, but I also want you to so I guess have two last questions. That’s one and my second one will be about early on, you’re in your career, I thought it was really interesting about telling story a little about the communication training piece in but but start with the books, just some of your favorite books or resources. Obviously, we have your book true connections really ship marketing in the digital world, which you’re looking at, you’re looking at the video, you could see on the right hand side and check it out. And I’m going to just try and convince them to get the audible version so I can listen to it because I know myself, my habits, um, what are some of your favorites? Books resources?

Martin Greif 51:19

Well, I will tell you the two books that have changed my life, okay. And one of those is Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends & Influence People. And it’s actually mandatory reading within the company, I make sure that everybody reads it. It is an oldie but goodie. But honestly, people haven’t changed. So some of the references may be a little dated, and so on. But it is an amazing book. And what he says is, you need to read it, I think he says twice a year. And, and I do try to read it twice a year, because we always fall back into our old bad habits. And so I’ve done sales training over the years, I fall back on that book over and over and over again. The other book that I read, and this has got to be about 25 or 2025 years ago, was written by Beverly De Angelis, Dr. Beverly De Angelis, PhD, and she wrote a book What Women Want Men to know, and it’s really thick, it’s on my shelf back here. And I read this book, and I got into about the first 70 pages of the book, and I’m like, Oh, my God, women cannot possibly be this dysfunctional. This is not possible. And then I read a little further, and I went, Oh, my God, men cannot possibly be this, this dysfunctional. And it turns out, we all are, we are wired differently, we think differently. And I actually remember sitting in work, and I am asking the question of both men and women. So during the day, do you do this, this and this? And all the women said, Yeah, we do. And I was like, Oh, my God, just like in the book. And I asked the guys, and because I didn’t want to just base it on me. Guys. Do you do? Oh, yeah, we do. I was like, Oh my god, we’re a mess. It’s amazing that we ever have more children appropriate. We don’t communicate with each other at all. And that book helped me communicate better with both men and women. Okay, it’s again, a dated book, but oh my god, it made me honest to God, a better boss, a better employee, it made me a better husband, you know, maybe a better father, you know? Yeah, I’ll even admit and forgive me, it actually made me a better lover, my wife was quite happy. And we won’t go into any more detail. But I’m telling you, it had a massive impact on my life. So if you want to be you know, a better boss, employee, you know, spouse, you know, parent or lover, hopefully not with the same people, then that’s a great book to read. Okay,

Jeremy Weisz 53:55

I think I should reach out to Dr. Beverly and write her landing page. That was really good. Like, I can write your landing page and get it converting. That’s true. Both check it out. Well, well, if the email afterwards like, Hey, you can include some of this copy in there. I had a person that I had met Marty that wrote a book What Men Know About Women, and it was a spoof book, and the whole thing was blank. It should be coupled with her book, like, get what men know about women, which is all blank. Yeah. And then her book is, you know, as a package is a package deal. Perfect. So that kind of goes to the next piece. Marty, which I alluded to it early in your career. Um, one of the things I think was really I don’t know if it was a milestone but a turning point. Talk about where when you have you got communication training and what happened with that.

Martin Greif 54:58

So this guy Back, oh, Lord 30 years ago, and I was director of product marketing, and the Vice President of Marketing and hired me. And he was upsetting me, because he was coming in late leaving early. And I was there a month and I called him on it. I said, John, you’re you’re leaving early, you’re coming. And he’s wide, just need to balance you out, because you come in early leave late. So we just try to balance Yeah. What he said now, he said, Actually, I gave my notice. He said, you’re going to be reporting directly to the chairman of the board. I said, Okay. And I thought, good. So I’m reporting to, to this gentleman. His name is Derrick. And he was a great guy. And at that time, I considered him a lot older because he was, I think he might have even younger than I am now, right. But I remember being a little older, gray haired, and I thought, all right, that should be interesting. And one day, I’m sitting in my office, and this consultant came in, he says, Hi, my name is Phil. He said, I’m here to help you with your communication problem. I went, Oh, what communication problem with that? And he said, Well, you are having a problem communicating with Dec. All right. And so I’m here to help you with your communication problem. I went, Okay. And he said, we’re going to meet for two hours every Tuesday for as long as it takes to improve your communication. And I found out that he was being paid $250 an hour, this is 30. There’s a lot of money. So on one side, I was pleased that Dick was going to invest in me. But on the other side, what do you mean, my communication problem? So a month goes by and I’ve been working with Phil, two hours a week on Tuesdays, I’ll never forget this for a month. And I said to him, and I’ll never forget this, I said to him, I said, well, Phil, you know what, I didn’t think I had a communication problem. But at the end of the day, you know, if dick and I are not communicating, the problem is going to be mine. It’s not his and he stopped, and he stood up. And he said, he said, You know what, most people never get there in their life. He said, and so let me paraphrase this, just to make sure we’re on the same page. He said, You know what, you may think this is all a pile of shit. He said, For urine addiction, you’re playing and Dikshit, right? Someday, you may have your own pile of shit. But right now you’re in addiction, and you got to communicate the way dick wants you to. Alright. And I thought about knowing, oh, my God, he’s right. Because communication is all about, you know, making sure that if you’re the communicator, your message is being received. And I took something from Phil that I’ve used even when I was VP and publicly traded companies. And I’ll do this and I’ll, I know you’ve got people listening, but I’ll ask you to describe myself on the camera, I put my my hand up. And it’s facing Jeremy. So Jeremy, if you were described my hand, what would you say you could see the palm, the side of the palm with the fingers. Okay. And if I were to describe my hand, and I turned my hand around, because I see the back of my hand, because it was facing him palm out, I see fingernails, Knuckles, and so on. And so when you’ve turned it back and forth, there’s different sides. So in communication, it’s all about knowing what the other person is receiving, and making sure that you can articulate what use the and understand what they see. And when you do that, you actually have good communication. And I will tell you in meetings, I would sit there when my teams would be arguing, and I just put my hand up, and I move it back and forth, palm to me, you know, to the backside back and forth. And they go Yeah, yeah, yeah, we know. And they say, all right, john, what did you mean by that? And yeah, Susie, I know, and, and they would actually talk and they would communicate and we get Problem solved. And basically, that’s our philosophy. And that’s really what conversion rate optimization is all about. It’s about communicating your value proposition in the way the other person gets it. And if you’re not doing that, you’re not converting. It’s that simple. Jeremy,

Jeremy Weisz 58:55

Marty, that’s a mic drop. Everyone check out, and Marty. Thanks so much.

Martin Greif 59:03

Thank you.