Jeremy Weisz
You’re always Top of Mind if that’s the case, because they’re part of your group. And they’ll talk about the early idea of the JVMM.
Dov Gordon
Take me back. Early idea. So I think I’ve been running this I’ve got two alchemy networks right now. One is the JVMM that’s a group of colleagues of mine, and what’s your one and the other is the Under the Radar Leaders Network, which is much newer. And that’s really for consultants and professional service firm owners who are looking to really build their own alchemy networks, I’m helping them learn how to do that. So JVMM, I think it’s about nine, maybe 10 years old. And I just formed it because I was looking to to reach small business entrepreneurs, consultants, experts and so on. Using the internet, I’ve learned to reach those people and through joint venture at the time teleseminars webinars were not another done at all then but maybe, you know, I think it was there was was a WebEx and there was those and GoToWebinar right. So and you know, I joined a number of different online forums, looking to find the community people that I felt comfortable with, because I wasn’t at the time it was your comments talk about you know, your email list is your is your ATM machine. You just kind of send out offers And you hit him hard and when it comes in, and I was never comfortable with that, because these email addresses represent people. And these people have dreams and they have frustrations and, and just it never sat well with me. So I was looking for to for a community of people that that I could collaborate with, because we had similar values, because we took a long term perspective in terms of our relationships with each other and with our email subscribers. So I didn’t find that group. So I just started my own. And I reached out to a handful of people who I’d met online in various different places. I don’t remember all who they were, and where we’d met, although, I’m pretty sure at least some of those are still in the group. And I said, hey, look, this is what I’m doing, would you want to join? And they said, Yes. And over the following years, we grew that to a pretty serious, significant, big group. I mean, it was at 195 200 About a year ago, and I realized that about half were active half were not it was time to switch from a free group, which I’d run all those years to pay. And now there is a modest annual membership. And I was I was really scared of making that move. Was that a tough decision? It was a very tough decision. I was I was very scared. I thought I’d lose everything. I thought I’d lose all those relationships. And But the truth is, it’s been it’s been remarkably good. It’s been great. And it was an important step that I needed to take, because it helped me understand how to make that transition successfully. We now have 60 Plus, I think we’re close to 70 members, right? So we went you know, I was afraid we’d end up with between 10 and 20. We went we went down to I think it was 50. And slowly we’ve been adding some more people you know,
Jeremy Weisz
how did you decide to navigate that conversation? Dov because like, for now, it seems obvious because you’ve had it but it’s Someone who’s working with us like, okay, job, I’m gonna shift from free to paid. What did that shift look like? How is that? How are those conversations? I was a part of those conversations I know. But
Dov Gordon
yeah, so Well, I mean, going back first of all this is when you, when you, when you have good people around you, you’re always gonna have some people who see what’s possible for you that you’re not seeing. Now, you play that role for other people. So I, you know, collected this fantastic group of really first class people. And there are some people in the group who are seeing what’s possible for me that I wasn’t even seeing. And, and because I wasn’t seeing it, obviously, I had lots of questions, lots of fears, lots of you know, concerns because so much of what I done was dependent on these relationships. So I was afraid of losing them. So you know, one person in particular, so I was having a pretty we were talking before Few weeks, you know, I was helping him with some things, he was helping me with some things. And he said, you really need to start charging as okay, but this and but that and how much and how people can react and I laid out all my my worries and fears. Other there there have been other members over the years who also said, You know, I really should start charging because it’ll raise the level of people in the group. Now I can tell you from experience that that’s not the case. I’m not saying I’m not saying that when people. People say, Well, if I charge then then people are more committed and more into it. And I can tell you that we had some fantastic participation from first grade people who were not paying, because what we did was we created a wonderful network, a wonderful community that, you know, they realized that hey, if I’m participate, I will benefit. So it absolutely is not always going to be Tied to money. Having said that, what a an annual membership does do is first of all, it gives me some compensation for the time I put into leading it, which is totally, you know, I’m really okay with that. Sure. And, and it also makes it clear to people who, you know, it makes it clear to everybody that who wants to be there. Because if we had, you know, about 200 people, and only about half of them were not really active, that’s not necessarily healthy either. So, you know, even though the other half were active, and it was, you know, very, very valuable still, it was I realized there was time for what that next step so I laid out some of my fears I was worried about exactly what they all were but but they were very they all seemed very real and it was exactly like what you said I concluded after discussing you know, so I discussed them with with with that person and I reached out to a number of other people who I know who have been very supportive over the years? And, you know, you know, and in and most of them so that Yeah, I don’t know why you didn’t start charging years
Jeremy Weisz
ago. Is that what you did to navigate as you reached out to get feedback from from people? Well,
Dov Gordon
I wanted to know that I would have at least a core group that I could rebuild from. Right. So, you know, and there’s there was one member who’s saying definitely she’s like, you know, he was in the Joe Polish’s 25k group and, and he’s like, this is just as good, you know, like, in many ways, great conversations, great people is like, and he’s like, what’s your PayPal and they like you PayPal sent over some money, like, you know, on the spot, which, which I’ll always appreciate because there’s that definitely said something and I ended up charging more than what he sent over because he sent over what I was thinking about at the time, but I made a decision A few weeks later, and the good sport that he is he paid up the difference. So You know,
Jeremy Weisz
how do you decide on what to charge?
Unknown Speaker
Well, you know, I
Jeremy Weisz
cause I can see that balance. Right. And we’ll get more into.
Dov Gordon
And, yeah, I mean, I, I figured that it’s something it’s less than most serious people are paying for, you know, even certain software add ons over the course of a year, but it’s enough to make a difference. And it’s enough that they have to make a decision, but not that much. You know, it’s just something to think about, like, yeah, it’s gonna be worth, you know, at least 10 to 100 times that over the course of the year and the answer for anybody serious is Yeah, of course. And at the same time, it you know, it’s, you know, it just, it gives me that extra little push to make sure that things are running smoothly, you know, which I’ve always done it, I think, good job of anyway, but, but still, it’s like, it’s something that I was able to recognize that Oh, okay. And you making that transition really also helped me realize that this is this, this is something that I can help other people do. Because there are so many, you know, everybody would like to just kind of give our credit cards over to Facebook, run some ads, have you know, and then have a, you know, an overflowing business. But most people who are experts, consultants, professional service firm owners, even business owners, most people who’ve tried that did not make it work for them or did not make a work in the long run. You know, even if it worked for a period of time, and one of our members was putting in I forgot how much every month but he was running a like a two and a half $3 million a year business and then about a year and a half ago, the Facebook algorithm changed and everything went off a cliff like that. He spent the next nine months and $600,000 going through three different agencies trying to bring back nothing. He had to completely reinvent himself, which is remarkable. He’s still doing well. But it’s not what he was doing. So, I mean, there is nothing like relationships, you know, when especially when it comes to high value consulting, high value coaching people, for the most part will find you through relationships. Are there exceptions? Yeah. You know, I came to realize a number of years ago that there are two paths to thriving as an independent consultant or, or an expert, one I think of as the path of the charismatic guru, and the other one is the path of mastery. And they’re both legitimate paths. There’s nothing wrong with being the charismatic guru type. If you’re just treating people ethically, and you know, presumably most of them do. But the problem is that most of us do not belong on that path. We wake up in the morning we say, Hey, I’m really good at x. World Class attacks, I can help businesses and people with x. And it’s really valuable. How do I get clients, I thought it’d be a lot easier than it’s turning out to be. And, you know, you look around then and all the charismatic gurus are the ones that we see. And they’re saying, Well, you’ve got to be doing Facebook ads, you’ve got to be on Instagram, you got to be on Twitter, I mean, or whatever. And once upon a time, the answer was you got to be blogging. Remember that remember blogging? So wasn’t that long ago, Paul, you gotta be podcasting. Right, which which is a fantastic medium, but and you help people understand the right and wrong kind of ways to go about it for most people, you know, there are some who the charismatic guru type, they’re gonna blow up and big with a big audience, but it’s not the right strategy for most people, which is what you teach. So most people end up there, they’re kind of walking down the path of the cosmetic guru following that we were trying to find to, you know, follow their advice. What they don’t realize That the the one thing that that Guru is relying on to a degree that that they may or may not even be conscious of that, that they cannot transfer to you is that their set of values and personality. And if you’re not the kind of person who is interested in putting yourself up on a pedestal as a celebrity, if you’re not the kind of person who is really interested in, you know, kind of becoming that that type of, you know, it’s it’s just not it’s not who you are, right? It’s it most people I think would like to be hired by their ideal clients because for who they are not for who they’re pretending to be. And if that’s not who you are, then it’s not going to work for you. And it’s going to in people go months, if not years kind of struggling against that, because when you don’t know what yes to do, and people say, do this, you’re going to try this and you’re going to try that. And when it doesn’t work and you’re not sure like why is it work for them? Not for me, you think there’s something wrong with you, but but the answer is no. I mean, you just got to get off the path of the cosmetic guru and get Back on the path of mastery where you belong. So creating, and that’s another thing is that most people, and I’m talking about, you know, let’s say independent consultants, and obviously, if someone’s leading a larger company, a larger consulting firm, you know, the numbers will go up. But most independent consultants are not looking for, you know, multi seven figure and scaling. It’s just not what most people want. Nothing wrong if you do want that, but it’s just not what most people want. Most people are looking for a good mid six figure or maybe offer six figure income, with some time, freedom, time to enjoy it time to be with their families, time to travel time to, you know, the ability of spending, you know, of, of spending some of that money without having to think about it. That’s what most people really want. And what they want is they want to get there by having the opportunity of doing great work with great clients who appreciate them. appreciate them for who you are. So how do you create that consistent flow of clients? If that’s who you are? Right? It’s not by following somebody He’s got such a very different set of dreams and aspirations and values and personality. And again, I’m not judging I’m not saying that one is right, the other one is wrong. I’m not. I’m simply saying that you’ve got to take the path that’s the right fit for you.
Jeremy Weisz
Dov when you say under the radar? Okay, so you could be an under the radar and lead this alchemy group? Is that what you’re referring to the path of mastery?
Dov Gordon
Yeah, um, you know, I say that you can become an under the radar leader in your industry and have all the clients that you want. And you do that by developing your own alchemy network, which we talk about our profitable, profitablerelationships.com, right? So an idea is like, Look, if you can develop relationships, you can get to know 15 3050 100 people in your industry. Like build, get to know them, to the point where they recognize that you’re at least somebody Who’s worth talking to once in a while, you know, they may not know you all, you know, as good friends, right? Some people, they’ll know you different different degrees. But if if if you get to the point where they’re, they’re willing to open your email and reply, take your phone call your text message and respond. And the next level is where they reach out to you to ask you certain questions. It doesn’t matter that nobody else knows who you are, it doesn’t matter that you’re not famous, that you’re not a, you know, a best selling author or, because these are people now who know that when they need x, you’re the ones who call, they’re going to call you they understand the problems, you help solve the results that you enable, and they understand who to introduce you to, because that’s part of obviously you have to this is there’s a you know, I I’ve developed and teach a strategic or you know, a systematic way of going about all these different stages, but the key idea is that if you have these relationships Your aim is, you know, good mid to upper six figure income. You don’t need that much more. Does that make sense?
Jeremy Weisz
Yeah. So what do you mean by stages?
Dov Gordon
Well, there’s there’s identifying along the way I said I like doing this is to bring people into your network. So for example, I have a client, who, you know, he had a remarkable two or three days, a number of months back, where he was reaching out to executives at nice sized companies through LinkedIn, cold. A lot of people do that. Identify a potential client, someone who fits a profile, you reach out to them, send the connection request and maybe start a conversation. So within it was two or three days he had five executives that at $500 million plus and billion dollar plus companies booked themselves onto his calendar, right because he’d reached out to them through LinkedIn, using messaging that we developed together. They responded, had a little bit of back and forth and then booked themselves on this calendar. Because he wasn’t taking the typical approach that most people take, he was inviting them to his alchemy network. When you lead an alchemy network, it also you’re creating a currency out of nothing, right? Because then there are different options that you could be making another 50 to $200,000 a year for the kind of relationship marketing that you’re probably already doing, and not getting paid for. I mean, that’s a lesson I learned last year. Right? Although, you know, and I’ve just built on that. I mean, that’s fine. In some cases, it might make sense to start off free, I’m kind of going off on a tangent. But even if you’re going to even even when you’re charging a membership for your alchemy network, you’re still in a position where you’re essentially giving something that’s very valuable to these people for a modest you know, a modest fee. So they reached out they responded and, and four out of five ended up joining his alchemy network, the fifth one he felt was not a good fit. So now he’s building religion. With these people and a new client for him is worth almost $200,000. on the low end. He just closed the deal about 668 weeks ago. I think he’s almost finished it for $175,000. And it’s a 90 day project. Right? So he doesn’t, you know, he doesn’t need he’s not even aiming for more than a few of those a year, his capacity, he’d be at capacity. Right. So that’s another thing is his his decide if he wants to increase his ability, his capacity, right. But most people that I, you know, most consultants, experts, they’d be very happy with that type of thing. This is part time, 90 days. Right. And it turns out that he’s doing more of it from home than he planned to because because of the Coronavirus issues. And in a sense that that was a blessing for him because he came to realize that he could do a lot of things remotely that he hadn’t realized where even possible. So now he’s got this growing alchemy network. And that’s it. That’s so there’s, you asked me about the stages is identifying potential members, there’s, there’s, you know, reaching out and connecting with them like beginning that conversation, there’s interviewing them, so to speak, and then there’s enrolling and onboarding them into your group. And all of these require a thought, you know, some thought and system and so on, so that you’re not constantly reinventing the wheel. And so that you’ve got your, your messaging and your targets, kind of well defined. So and then, of course, is leading the group, you know, leading the group and then, you know, then there’s, there’s kind of identifying, you know, where people are, and, and looking for opportunities. If it’s a route, if it’s a group of 3050 100 150 potential clients. These are like you talked about, you know, the Chet Holmes concept of dream 100 I think of this as very much like, you know, a more modern evolution of a dream 100 approach where you’re not just kind of reaching out to everybody individually. You’re really building a community And by the way, when you have one happy client in that group, they’re going to talk to others that you’ve introduced them to tell them some stories. And that’s going to just grease the wheels for that next big project. The next big client
Jeremy Weisz
Dov, you know, there’s a lot of things to unpack For a second there with, you know, starting running and leaving group and talk about the curation process a little bit. Because you’re really good at curating which is a huge value to everyone in the group.
Dov Gordon
So I think you need to be clear as to what you’re looking for and what you’re not looking for, and you need you also need the discipline to not accept the wrong person, you know, but it’s really not that different than you need to discipline if you’re running a restaurant to not use cheap ingredients, you know, that are that that you know, to not cut corners. When you’re when you’re forming an alchemy network. You are You’re creating a product in a sense, right? And you need to know you need to be clear as to who is it that you’re looking for? And why. Further, before you even start, why are you building an alchemy network? Why? What’s it going to do for your business? You’ve got to know how it’s going to work backwards and serve you. I’ve had some, some, some people in the under the radar leaders network, share how they’re going to start this. I remember a conversation recently, I’m starting this network for those people. My question was, well, how is that going to? How’s it going to drive your business forward? Well, not. The answer was a sound like an intensity was a nice thing to do. It’s a community I have access to good people. But there was that gap there. And my suggestion is, go back to the design phase, you got to figure out what you’re, you know, what what are you doing? So that’s going to drive your business. And then you know, what are the values that you’re looking for? So when I was debating, with my myself about whether I’m going to charge. You know, one of the things that I said was like, Look, there’s so much generosity in the group. You know, if I if I need to reach out to you, or john or anybody really and just, you know, ask you a question, I’ve got that access, which is valuable to me and in a sense is probably more valuable than the membership that I’m charging. Right. So what I was afraid like would people no longer be willing to to get on a call with me for half an hour to talk something through? If if they’re also paying an annual membership fee? And this member who was really encouraging me to to do that he said to the group, everybody is the generosity is because of the leadership because of the the model that you sell that you that you said, it’s not going to change, just because people are paying this modest annual membership. And that was such a, an eye opener for me. That was just those like, Huh, you know, and he’s obviously right. That’s it. That’s been absolutely been the case. You know. And that’s really a big that’s a big value for other people in the group. Like when you’re when you’re bringing together the right people, and you’re encouraging them to get to know each other, you’re looking for them to have one on one and other conversations and meetups, one of the things I enjoy the most is getting pictures from people who are both at some event somewhere and, you know, in the Midwest or in California, or wherever that I couldn’t be at, but it’s great to see five or six or a dozen JVMM members getting together and you know, having an end I love seeing that. And there’s being able to collaborate and to pick the brains of other people because there’s a professional courtesy that you get just by being in there now and that that’s something that other people would pay through the nose for.
Jeremy Weisz
Dov What is your process for curation? What do you look for, for someone for the JVM?
Dov Gordon
I’m looking for I’m looking for people who are looking Specifically for JVM, I’m looking for people who are number one marketing and selling to small business entrepreneur consulting expert. That market we do have some people who also sell to SME and corporate. So we do have some of that. But first of all, they have to be selling to the right market, you know, and the reason for that, obviously, because we’re, you know, the core idea is that people in the group are open to promoting each other. Right, in one way or the other. So, that’s the first thing I’m looking for. A number of years ago, someone came to me and he wanted to nominate someone he knew as a member JVMM is somebody who is focused on the dating and relationship space and had over a million email subscribers. And I said, that sounds really amazing. But what would we be able to offer him? Like he’s just like, nobody in the group is going to promote him, or almost nobody, like what would he and even if they did, it would be you know, most I mean, we have some We had some people with like, you know, you know, the low six figure list, but that’s that was the higher end, right? So I just I said no, I mean because I feel like everybody, everybody in the group needs to be able to both contribute and receive and if I can’t see how somebody could both give and gain as they say, I think it’d be an AI right. You’ve got to be able to to contribute and receive that has to be I’m not looking for any heroes. I’m not looking for any celebrities in the group, like no one is in the group because they’re a celebrity. Although we have some celebrities in the group. Everyone is in there because of their mastery. So that’s I’m looking for number one, the market they’re going to number two, the fact that they’re that they’re going adding something that they are open to cross promotion of one kind or another for others in the group. And number three, because of you know who they there’s they can both contribute and benefit because I can To realize, you know, a number of years ago, somebody emailed the group to our group email and, and said, Hey, everyone, this other member is doing this paid workshop over the weekend, check it out. And I got a couple of grumbling emails saying What was that all about? Not because we’re afraid of promotion, like we’re all market and sell things. None of us are afraid of someone telling us, hey, this is going on and then you can pay for it. I mean, that’s fine. No, and you know, we’ll pay for stuff. But it’s because she hadn’t participated in at least a year maybe longer. So there was that emote? You know, that was it the emotional bank account that Stephen Covey talks about it was like what why she just suddenly popping up and sending us a promotional thing. So I emailed her behind the scenes and I said, Hey, you know, I got got some slack some some flack for your, your emails, like, Oh, yeah, I’m sorry, I really I should participate more. And so and I’ll make an effort to participate more and I responded. I said, Look, I’m not interested in you in giving you another chore like That’s not at all like, I don’t want you to feel like you have to participate, I only want people to participate when they want to participate. Because the value of the group is a direct result of people who recognize that when I participate for my own selfish reasons, everybody gains when people feel like they have to participate, it doesn’t, you know, that that’s, it doesn’t work. So you know, and then I’m looking for people who are happy to share their out if you have to be doers out there doing, not just thinking about it, not just talking about it. And their business has to be at a stage where I can actually see like, I’m, I’m interested in what I think it was high quality, that they could be somewhat beginner, not to beginner, intermediate, advanced. And, you know, and, and a willingness to go out and, you know, implement all the time and then come back and share with the rest of us what’s working and what’s not working. You know, what did you do that you’re proud of? And what did you do that you kind of went like to experience again. So these are the things that I’m looking for.
Jeremy Weisz
So, you know, I want to talk about profitablerelationships.com, and a little bit of the evolution of that. And you mentioned, you know, we were chatting before hitting record about Joel Erway influenced it. So talk about what we see now and what that influence was.
Dov Gordon
Well, Joel Erway who His focus is on was a webinar was this website.
Joe JoelErway.com I
Jeremy Weisz
look him up. But he’s an expert at webinars. Yeah. And many, many webinars, I think,
Dov Gordon
right. He’s in our group. And I, you know, I recently took a second look at some of what he’s beendoing what he’s been teaching, and I was very impressed. He’s got a really good solid model. And I’ve just, you know, I use that as a framework for the video that I put up on profitable. It’s a short presentation. It’s 13 and a half minutes, I think it is, and I really just lays out The framework of how to, you know how you could be earning anywhere from 50 to 100 150 $200,000 a year from a lot of the relationship marketing that you’re already doing, and you’re doing it for free. And I just used his framework for that, because it’s just a very good simple clean framework. And, you know, and Joel is a really good guy, you know, like,
Jeremy Weisz
what’s one framework that sticks out to you?
Dov Gordon
Well, he he talks about the here’s a really good idea for just a very simple framework, what does he call it is super, super offer and power offer is power offer, right? Which, you know, talks about a lot, which basically is let me if I could help you, x, right. You know, would you take me up on it right. And so what I have here as if I offer to help you turn your relationship marketing from a time sink into a brand new 50 to $200,000 a year revenue stream, that means you’re getting paid for things that you’re already doing, would you take me up on the offer? Right? So, no, I wrote that I actually I don’t know if Joel would consider that an effective application of his principle. And you know, I don’t want to apply his endorsement on that. But but but that’s you know, that’s that’s definitely something that stands out and it really it gives frame and focus. And it’s really for me it’s really just helped add another little chink in my own slow rebranding moving moving everything over to profitablerelationships.com because it’s been quite an you know, several years probably that I’ve been thinking to myself, you know, I even before I was charging for the JV, I’m like, this is this is a valuable thing. But is this something that like, but I used to, I didn’t appreciate what I was doing. I felt like anybody could do this. This is not hard. But But then I think started to realize that I don’t know anybody was doing it. You know, there’s, I’m not talking about a Facebook group. I’m not talking about a LinkedIn group. I’m not talking about a, you know, a slack group. I’m not talking about, you know, bi style networking. I’m not talking about any of that. And it’s the nuances that make that make the difference. So, you know, I realized that this is something that other people could be using. They build their own alchemy network, something I’ve been doing for 10 years plus in various forms. And now we’ve got you know, I’ve got a just yesterday I heard from a client in the Netherlands and he’s his alchemy network. He just kicked it off. He’s got started with, I think it’s about almost 10 people is somewhere between eight and 10. And he’s focused on SAS, senior leaders of sass companies, software as a service companies. He’s got you know, I think he said most of the companies in there are are funded They received investment funding. And they’re all that a great first call. He was telling me, he was telling us in the Under the Radar Leaders Network about it, you know, and and I’ve got another another member there a woman who she saw an opportunity to really kind of piggyback on an existing community and take the principles of the alchemy network, and she kind of ended up with an alchemy network overnight. That includes about 100 people, several of whom have already sent her business. So that’s a colleague based alchemy network. And that that brings in the question of, you know, which doesn’t actually own that network. But sometimes it doesn’t matter if you own it or not, right. Sometimes, you know, there’s there’s benefit to just going into something that someone else is running and you realize an opportunity and she’s bringing the same principles she’s already gotten, like probably several mid to upper five figure referrals. From from people in that group, so it sure made sense for her to jump in and, and, and create a network for them using what she learned from me. So it’s a, you know, it’s just she’s gonna have she’s gonna get more. So those are the kinds of things that I’m helping people do. And I love that because these are not the charismatic guru types. These are people who are masters at their craft, they love what they do. They’re really good at what they do. And all they want is to be doing great work with great clients and making a great income and have some time to enjoy themselves and to enjoy their income and spend time with their family. So
Jeremy Weisz
Dov thank you. First of all, I have one last question, but I should everyone should check out profitablerelationships.com, see what you’re doing. There is a great video there. You have some great videos actually on YouTube that I binge watch over the past couple days. encourage people to check out what’s the first action people should start to take to create their own alchemy network, what should they start with?
Dov Gordon
See I actually I it You also mentioned the profitablerelationships.com/inspiredinsider and there we have a different middle kind of mini training there that that that lays out the steps that you can follow and and you know start to do right away. But the first two decisions that you need to make are number one who is my ideal member? And number two, what’s the big idea? Because you’ve got to have clarity about who is the ideal member and what is the big idea that is going to make this person want to participate? And, you know, these are simple questions. They’re not always so easy to answer. But, but those are absolutely the foundational the foundational questions that you need to find the first steps.
Jeremy Weisz
Don’t what are people the best way to people get a hold of you.
Dov Gordon
Dov Gordon at DovGordon.net, more profitablerelationships.com There’s definitely some way here to reach out to me. So but Facebook, LinkedIn, I’m pretty much everywhere I do with Dov Gordon.
Jeremy Weisz
Everyone check out profitablerelationships.com you know if you’re wondering who’s pulling the strings behind the behind the scenes of some of these groups, sometimes oftentimes it some though that path leads back to Dov. whether you realize it or not, so don’t thanks for what you do everyone check it out. Thanks again
