Search Interviews:

Daniel James 7:39 

Maybe agencies have the second choice of failed musician seems to be a lot of buzz.

Jeremy Weisz 7:45 

What did you bring your learnings in from MySpace, and then your career into because you trajectory in performance marketing was a quick scaling of seven figures.

Daniel James 7:57 

It was quick. I think that every position that I had before mint I was learning around the principles. I didn’t study marketing, I didn’t study what I do. I mean, I learned very much through application and from learning from other people around me. But I was working on very different size brands, frankly, prior to mint. I mean, the reason I started mint was I was working with these huge brands. And it was moving away from strategy and a little bit more. It was contract negotiations and overseeing teams, which I enjoyed, don’t get me wrong, but I like to work with brands where I could be more impactful on their business. And not just be about we’ve got this budget, spend it. Okay, cool. How much you can bring strategy to that don’t get me wrong, but it lost its excitement to me after a while. So I think really what I took into mint was this mindset of I was always really disillusioned by how big brands used many, many, many different agencies for everything. And none of us would talk to each other. Right? Because you’ve got competing interests, you don’t have aligned incentives. What you’re trying to do when you have fragmented agency vendors, is you’re trying to protect what you’re getting from that brands. And obviously, you’re going to do the best job you can do and to try to drive performance. But I think that world whereby things were so fragmented, I started mint with the vision that we want to be a full service agency for disruptive e-commerce brands where they have one partner that can optimize and work across every aspect of the core things that drive success for that business. Now we don’t do everything, right. We don’t do SEO. We don’t do certain things. within the broader digital sphere, but the core things are what we focus on acquisition, retention and the various capabilities that drive that. One of the main things I took away is I didn’t want to offer a fragmented service or capability to the brands that we would work with.

Jeremy Weisz 10:20 

Let’s talk about some of those. So Ghosts Golf. Yes. Talk about them. And what do you do?

Daniel James 10:30 

Ghost Golf. First of all, anyone who’s into golf, you should check them out. I’m not being paid for this promotion. They’re a great brand. And Andy, the owner is a phenomenal guy, super cool guy. So we do everything for them. We do influencers, social media, paid social, Google email, SMS. As well as we work on things like conversion rate optimization. We started working with Ghost Golf mid this year. And actually, he was working with many, many different agencies at the time. Not a bad decision, it worked for them up until that point, but I think one of the reasons we’ve been able to be so successful with Ghosts Golf, is when you have your influencer team, your social team, your paid team, your Google team, your email team, in a pod, working together, discussing how everything can connect, to drive the most efficient, scalable, profitable performance. It just makes sense. And then from a vendor perspective, he’s not talking to six different people trying to kind of protect what they want to do, it’s you got to use a single growth strategist, everyone who’s executing those channels, the strategy is aligned, everyone’s working towards the same strategy. So naturally, you’re going to see more efficiencies, better performance, and a more cohesive kind of brands across the digital and social touchpoints that a consumer is coming across.

Jeremy Weisz 12:03 

I want to break one of these down. Specifically, I find influencer marketing pretty fascinating and really allows companies to leapfrog right? Because they’re using someone else’s audience influences that they may have spent years building up. So what makes a successful influencer marketing campaign? For Ghost golf or for anyone?

Daniel James 12:31 

Yeah. So, influences can be used in a couple of different ways as well, right? So there’s influences or craters, where you’re partnering with them, just for the creative. What you want is, is a highest level of creative. That’s UGC, that’s like people to people. And I’m a big believer in that I think you need all the spectrums of creative at a certain level of scale to perform. But influencers do such a great job, because it’s so native and contextually relevant to the platforms that were mainly advertising across, which is social, right, you see a person’s face, it feels more native than if you see some very stylized, kind of commercial type assets. So we use a lot of our influencers and creators, we have a huge creator network at mint that we’ve vetted different creators, mainly to drive advertising success, right. So they’re creating content based on a loose script, but making sure they talk across like the key points of the brand, so we can use it within ADS. The other benefit of influences is, as you mentioned, we are tapping into people with what you’re really doing is using them to engage with their communities, right? They have a community because of x, whatever that might be. And so you’re tapping into a community that is relevant to the brand, because they follow that influencer for a reason. So there’s a natural benefit there, then you can amplify that through things like whitelisting, or spark ads, and engage with extensions of those audiences as lots of data, things you can do on the back end. And then from a volume perspective, the cost of what you might be paying them in product or a fee to produce the content versus media dollars, often bounces out to be pretty efficient, right? So depending on your goals and everything else.

Jeremy Weisz 14:27 

And you’re reaching someone who’s warm, not cold. So even though the dollar is balanced out, you’re hitting someone who trusts this person.

Daniel James 14:34 

Exactly, exactly, was it they say, people trust the values and opinions of others when they share common beliefs, right. So you’re harnessing that, and you’re harnessing it through creative medium. That, like I said, is super native to the platforms that you’re on. So you’re increasing your chances of that not being viewed as just an ad or whatever else because it doesn’t look like an ad necessarily. It’s conveying value to the consumer. Versus hey, we’re, we’re advertising to you, because we want you we want to tell you about us. It is a more of a shared benefit. When it’s coming from an influencer. I feel.

Jeremy Weisz 15:19 

What are some of the mistakes you see people making when using influencer marketing?

Daniel James 15:26 

Not thinking through that community element. It’s not about is the influencer on brand. It’s about is their community relevant to the brand? To see what I mean? And I think that’s a big difference. I think obviously, the influence has to be decently on brand, but it’s about is their community engaged, and the type of community we want to be tapping into. So I would think community first versus influencer first. Right, they often align, but they don’t always. I would say, and we take the approach, and I know other people do it differently. We take the approach of providing creative scripts. I think you don’t want to restrict the influencer creator. They’re an influencer and a creator for a reason, they’ve figured out a way that to create content that’s unique to them, that engages with people. That said, it doesn’t always mean they’re great at getting across what you want to from a brand perspective. So we always give guidelines, but allow the creative freedom for that to be produced in the way that they want. Because at the end of the day, what you’re trying to do with influences drive an end result. And I think this, in our experiences, had a higher chance of success of as getting a result than just, hey, go do what you want. So I think those two things are pretty key.

Jeremy Weisz 16:57 

Yeah, I think right now in this moment in time, and we’ve seen a huge rise in Tik Tok right it’s immediate channels whenever you’re listening to this I’m not sure where it’s going to be at in that the realm of other social media but you mentioned on brands or what have you seen working even watching Dancing with the Stars of my family like one of them is kind of emerged as a TikTok influencer is now you know, kind of mainstream media star as well. What have you seen works or doesn’t on TikTok

Daniel James 17:32 

Is actually interesting about that, TikTok is producing like bigger personalities and that transcending TikTok into things like TV a lot more than I think Instagram influencers are, maybe they did in the early days. And I think a lot of the common the same things we were saying like why is Tik Tok blown up so much? I mean, one of the main reasons is it still has organic reach. So you can actually establish yourself on Tik Tok, whereas organic reach on Instagram, as you know, is so challenging. If you haven’t already built an audience, I think it’s really difficult to do that these days on Instagram. So TikTok, the barrier to entry for creative is lower, because it is all just UGC, content is, it’s all video. Right? And it’s got even less of a production level required than Instagram to be successful. So I think when you combine that with the fact that organic reach is so high, like it’s very attractive to creators, and you can establish an audience pretty quickly.

Jeremy Weisz 18:46 

I’ve heard varying opinions. Daniel, I want to hear your take on it on video where it’s let’s take spectrum of overly like really produced versus not at all? Where do you fall? Or where are your thoughts on that spectrum of what people should be creating for their brands?

Daniel James 19:07 

It depends as with anything, how often demographers say it depends. I think it’s really true. I think it depends on what you trying to achieve. I think ultimately, you’re going to want both. I would say what drives quicker performance for a brand is you probably don’t need to spend a ton of money on overly produced stylized video content, especially not on TikTok, right? Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be investing money into content production. But I would say you know for brands looking to tap into Tik Tok and video. It really is. I think that UGC content versus overly stylized produced video content that has its place, don’t get me wrong. It has a huge place and a brand but I’d say by nature, that type content is maybe more brand awareness, which, like I think you need at a certain stage of a brand. Now look at other platforms like YouTube, I’d say YouTube requires other than YouTube shorts as a YouTube requires more of that produced video. You know that story arc that works really well on YouTube. I think performance on YouTube, and the type of assets that work are that slightly more produce. And I go back to the same point, Jeremy is like, what’s your goal? And also what’s native to the platform that doesn’t feel out of place, because if it feels out of place, it might catch your attention, and therefore do really well. But it might just feel super irrelevant to the platform. And therefore you can just mosey on by without paying attention.

Jeremy Weisz 20:52 

Yeah, thanks for that. You mentioned loyalty, right when talking about influencers? And before we hit record, we are talking about this, and you mentioned the exact topic, which is the importance of building loyalty and why now more than ever, it’s maybe super important.

Daniel James 21:09 

Yeah, there’s a couple of factors, acquisition costs are getting more expensive. As we know, it’s the natural increase in costs when platforms become more mature. So you never want to be acquiring a customer twice. Right? Once you’ve acquired a customer, and you’ve paid for that person to become a customer of your brand, you should be like, a huge focus should be on how do we keep them within our ecosystem? How do we get them to come back? So I think there’s, and rightly so much larger emphasis on retention, than maybe there was when during the Facebook heydays, where it’s like, how acquisitions are cheap, we can just keep acquiring, there’s no shortage of customers we can acquire, and it’s cheap. So we’re good forever. I think we take the approach as well of it’s got to be scalable and sustainable, right. And as you get to certain levels of scale, from an acquisition perspective, it becomes even more expensive. So your retention efforts are hugely important in the sustainability in that whole CAC to LTV ratio. I mean, why is it even more important now, if you look at the macro economic climate, inflation rising. Are we in a recession now, probably are we going to be in one in a couple of months depends on how you classify it. Consumers are going to be even more picky about where they put their money. Right, they’re going to demand more from brands, they’re going to be more cost conscious. So I think brands have to pay real attention to really going above and beyond when you acquire a customer to keep them engaged.

Jeremy Weisz 22:59 

One thing you mentioned about the loyalty to is just making sure you provide a really great experience for the customer. And so I’d love to hear a couple examples that you’ve seen personally, maybe it’s brands you work with, or maybe there’s ones you’ve experienced, because you purchased will be some examples of a good customer experience that you’ve had, or that you’ve strategize with your clients.

Daniel James 23:28

Yeah, I think there’s a couple of elements to that, right. When you think of experience, there’s the experience of your communication as a brand upon purchase. There’s the experience of how fast is my shipping, I think these days, people expect fast shipping. And that’s one of the biggest things that possibly puts people off being a repeat customer, if your product takes a long time to arrive. Which is where the whole supply chain and everything comes into place. Like that’s a really big challenge for brands buy, because I think, actually, the biggest impact on a consumers experience with a brand is the shipping element. Right? Like, if you get your product the next day, or within five days or whatever it might be like, oh, wow, that came really quickly. I was amazing. Thank you so much. I’m very happy to have got my products if it takes longer than that, like where the fuck is my thing, like, what is going on? So I think that’s one of the biggest things. Then when I think about it more from a, I guess slightly more marketing angle. It’s how am I then following up with that consumer? In terms of, is there a VIP program? Am I getting loyalty points? Am I being offered subscription? Are they paying attention to what I’ve purchased and therefore what I might be interested in? One of the things I am a big believer in is you think of the world of social How the product arrives. And is it shareable? Right? If you get a product and it’s in just a blank bag in a cardboard box with a bunch of tape around it, okay, cool, you open it, you use it for whatever it is whatever the product is, if it’s in cool packaging, and it’s got a thank you note and a couple of stickers and maybe some, a lot of people are going to take a picture of that, post it on Instagram and say thank you so much x x x for my product, that’s word of mouth, that’s digital, social word of mouth advertising that you’re getting for free, based on paying a bit more attention to how a product arrives in your consumers hands. So I think those are a couple of things to really be paying attention to. When it comes to like that overall experience.

Jeremy Weisz 25:46 

Love that. Yeah, as you say that it’s funny. It’s stuff that is you don’t even or at least for me, it’s not like it’s just as glaring thing that’s happening. It’s almost like this subtle thing we ordered slime view of dealing kids and they’re our kids are in a slime, you know, stuff. But it came with like a couple of cool little stickers. And I’m like, oh, and I just thought, oh, that’s kind of cool. And it was part of the customer experience. It wasn’t just over the top, but it was definitely added to that experience.

Daniel James 26:22 

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think it makes a huge difference it makes it feel special. Versus just getting the product like I said in a bag or a couple of bucks.

Jeremy Weisz 26:35 

Talk about another company that you’ve worked with as New Republic. And what were some of the things that you worked on with them.

Daniel James 26:45 

So New Republic is a mainly footwear brands based in LA, run by really good friends of mine, de Murthy and Josh Kaplan and New Republic, it has a lot of SKUs, right. So I think this is the other thing that we talk a lot to brands about where they whether a multi SKU brands is you can advertise everything. Or you can double down on what the hero product is right that the gateway drug for lack of a better word. So a lot of our work with New Republic really was around or what’s the hero product, what’s the flagship one or two products and it’s seasonal, because it’s footwear. So in the summer, it’s a sneaker in the winter, it’s boots, but really making that the hero and optimizing that journey as much as possible. So going from prior to when we took over, every shoe was being advertised, right everything. And so performance was, you might have a good day on this shoe or but then it trails off, and then this shoe might trail up. So it wasn’t very consistent. And I think that’s what I see a lot from brands where they haven’t identified or launched that brand in a way that there’s a flagship, and then the supportive supplemental products that you upsell through email, SMS or whatever else. So we’re able to double down and the brands kind of knew what their hair products where they just didn’t have the advice from their previous marketing team that we should really focus on advertising efforts on it. So wasn’t that the brand didn’t necessarily know because they know footwear and seasonality better than anyone that I know. But what we were able to do is really focused on creative testing around those hero products, and optimized landing page experience and then really use email and SMS as a way of cross selling other products to people that were brought in through the two core hero products that were identified. That is such an unlock to kind of like that incubator stage of a brand where you’re selling. But to unlock that real growth potential. I think that’s one of the main ways I’ve seen us be able to do that is okay, cool. You’ve got 12 products, which is the one what’s the one that’s going to get people to really buy in and then the others we can sell as add ons have them as upsells in your cart, or like I said an email SMS afterwards. But yeah, that’s the word we have a new public we’re doing with them.

Jeremy Weisz 29:27 

I love thinking about like 80-20, right, there’s always the 20% of the products that are resulting in 80% of the revenue. So focusing in on those. You mentioned SMS, Daniel and this kind of goes into kind of you didn’t say this, but kind of like your steps for providing a great customer experience and one of those was communication under that as SMS and you mentioned that part for New Republic. What are some mistakes you see people make with SMS marketing?

Daniel James 30:04 

The mistakes that are made with SMS and email, if I’m honest, any of those kinds of direct communication channels is lack of personalization. Like, on any level, so lack of personalization based on not segmenting your users based on their previous and current touchpoints, or experiences with the brand. Actually had this with a brand, I think it was SMS. And was it I can’t remember exactly, it was an ads actually SMS I’d already bought the products that I was getting, getting bombarded with, to buy, it’s like, pay attention. It just puts you off. It’s very on personal. 

Jeremy Weisz 30:48 

Did you send them your website be like I think we can help you. I already bought this, I think you maybe use my help.

Daniel James 30:59 

I know I should wear it capacity, though at the moment. So we can’t take people on at the moment. But yeah, I think a lack of personalization is one of the biggest things if you’re going to, it’s such a personal communication channel, right, my text messages, you’re there in between your girlfriend and your mom, or whoever your significant others. If you’re going to text me, it needs to be relevant, right. So I think personalization and relevancy to who I am as part of your consumer base or subscriber base, excuse me, I think is super important. And then I think with SMS as well, lead with, I think always leading with value and don’t overdo it. And no one wants to be bombarded with texts from anyone, let alone brands, even if you love that brand. So I think there really has to be a high level of value exchange on the brand side, email can be more frequent, right. But I’d say SMS specifically, less frequent, super personalized and a very high level of value exchange on the brand’s paw. I saw example in LinkedIn, actually, the brand bloom, they were giving Starbucks vouchers, I think it was nothing to do with the brand. I mean, it was probably connected somehow. But like, I like that, as a consumer, that put that puts that brand up in my estimations. If they’re going to do that, for me, it’s probably like buy something and get a Starbucks gift voucher, I’m sure they’re just giving away for free I can’t remember exactly. But that’s an extra value. That’s building loyalty. That’s a great experience that’s using SMS in a really cool way. It doesn’t feel like you’re just attacking me in my inbox, or my SMS inbox. So yeah.

Jeremy Weisz 32:48 

Daniel, when I was looking through, and if you’re listening to the audio on, you can look at the video I’m showing. We’re looking at, love the look and feel of your website. And I was looking through, and a couple of things stuck out one brand that’s always fascinated me and I saw you work with them as MUD\WTR. So I’d love for you to share a little bit about the things that you did with them.

Daniel James 33:17 

Yeah, so MUD\WTR Shane and Paul, amazing guys. Lovely guys. They’ve built an incredible brand. We work with them for a while, kind of early on, they’re actually doing a tasting at the we work, that was our first office when it was just there wasn’t very many of us in the company at the time. And they’re amazing to work with super smart. What was interesting with those guys is I think they just did a phenomenal job of how they positioned the brand. And we were helping them with their advertising on social, some Google, I think some influencer stuff as well. And what I loved about it is they really understood the brands, they really understood who their target market was. And the creative which Shane and Paul were kind of key in was, it was kind of attacking coffee. And what I really liked or my biggest memory of it was, you would have people in the ad comments defending coffee like fuck you what is this? Like, coffee is the best. And then, you know some of the ingredients in their quadriceps. I think it was is it something to do with a bug? I don’t know. Like, what is this got fucking bugs in your drink? But what I liked is they were like this is amazing, because then what you’d see is people who liked MUD\WTR come in and be like Shut up, like my boy is the best coffee does this to you kind of like, see you’d have this thing going on in the ad comments, which was like people attacking the product, but then fans of the product defending it. And I just really loved the I think it’s quite a brave move. And I think one that paid off that they’re like, no, leave it. Let that happen. I would say I would argue maybe a lot of brands, if there was things such negative comments in their ads comments would probably scrap the creative or delete the comments or they’d do something. But the fact that you were having this back and forth between fans of the product and then real coffee defenders, I think did a lot to kind of spot the brutality of some of those ads that they were running at the time.

Jeremy Weisz 35:47 

Yeah, you see some really good campaigns have an enemy, right. Maybe even you look at Apple, right? They’re early on ads. And you can see like, even in their motto or a coffee alternative. Right. It talks about morning ritual.

Daniel James 36:04 

Yeah, I think they’ve also been, super smart things like subscription only that value out of having the creamer and the mixer. Again, we only work with them early on. But they’ve gone on to do amazing things. But that I think it was a brave move for them. And a really smart move for them at the time to be quite strong of we are this and we’re against this right to take that strong stance and allow people to like in the comments, like I said, kind of argue about it, I think was brave and smart. And it definitely worked.

Jeremy Weisz 36:43 

Love that. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. That story. Daniel, I want to talk I’m acquisition. Right? You grew really fast? How did that conversation get started from an acquisition standpoint.

Daniel James 36:54 

So Social Chain invested in us, they acquired a percentage of our company. And the conversation came about somewhat surprisingly, what I’ll say is, I’ve known as Social Chain for a long time coming from England, they were laced with died in Manchester by Stephen Bartlett, incredible entrepreneur and marketer, who’s gone on to do phenomenal things. And Oliver Yan Chef, who was the MD of social chain, us at the time, we’d known each other on the circuit, the different events, Social Media Week events and stuff like this. And we met up in LA, for coffee, and he was asking about the agency mensen. I mean, we’re only two years in at the time. And really, the way it came about is Social Chain has built its business and its name and its legacy on doing really creative, social first creative, like campaigns, more around like brand awareness, really tapping into social media as a way of like a communication tool to the consumers. They never really had a performance element to what they did in terms of like acquisition or true paid media as it relates to like, more lower funnel performance. And so the opportunity was tie those two worlds together, right? How can we tie the world and more brand of marketing with performance marketing, which has been something that I’ve always been baffled as to why they’re so separate, baffles the wrong words, I know exactly why they’re so separate, but it shouldn’t be. So opportunity to be able to work with Social Chain and start to try and tackle those challenges and offer those solutions was a huge one for me. And I’ve got a massive amount respect for Oliver. He’s not there anymore. He’s working with Steve at Flight Story. But that’s how it came about and like I said, I’m a big fan of Social Chain and fortunate enough that I was made CEO of Social Chain us about three months ago now. So converging those two worlds of brands and performance, I think not only has always made sense, I think as we move into next year and again, not to put a downer on things, the challenging economic market brands want efficiencies. What is the common thing in marketing was the first thing to get cut? Right from a brand’s p&l marketing is super easy line item on a p&l to cut. It’s so short term thinking because you won’t see an immediate decline in revenue, but you’ll see it in three, six, 12 months’ time, right that’s kind of how it works. So I think being able to tie brand and performance together and have that cohesiveness across the entire consumer journey is something that makes sense. From a consumer perspective, makes sense from a performance perspective, and will make more sense for brands in terms of efficiencies, both from their marketing dollars, but also their vendor relationships as well.

Jeremy Weisz 36:54 

When an acquisition conversation starts, obviously to agree on, if someone’s investing a percentage in the company, how’d you come to the value?

Daniel James 40:32 

I asked for the highest possible and they narrowed it down and to pointless topics?

Jeremy Weisz 40:39 

I mean, like for you, like, even if you ask for whatever, they’re gonna say, how’d you come to that number? How would you factor in?

Daniel James 40:47 

There’s a couple of things. Right? There’s obviously it’s a multiple on EBITA in different, different verticals, valuations, as you as you know, based on different things. Right. So from a service based company, I think your valuation is heavily tied on your EBITA. It’s also heavily tied to are you growing? What is your profitability? The length of your contracts do you have for castable revenue or not? What’s the composition of your team, if you’re a freelance contractor, only agency, your value is less than if you have full time employees that have been there for a while. Right? So that we were aided by the fact that we’ve been profitable from day one, we are growing year over year, we had established employees that were at the company had been at the company for some time, we had forecasted revenue, because we do contracts with our clients. We don’t do month to month. So I think all those things aided me in getting a good valuation. And for anyone else who’s building a service based business, those are the factors that people are going to look at.

Jeremy Weisz 42:05 

Was there a certain percentage that you would or weren’t willing to give up in the sale?

Daniel James 42:15 

I think it was important for me at the time that I still had control. Because why is that because we were really early, this wasn’t a sell some of the company because I want to, I want to cash out and go and chill somewhere, it was a strategic alignment opportunity. So based on that, it was always going to be a smaller percentage to allow for that strategic alignment to happen, and a more seamless way. Because the other thing we did, coming into Social Chain was actually built out a UK team to service Social Chain internal brands. So the big opportunity there for Social Chain was when we have all these e-commerce brands. Our current agency doesn’t have the capabilities to drive e-commerce success. So they’re outsourcing performance marketing, to other agencies. So what their investment into mint allows is, for me to take all the things that have allowed us to become good at what we do in the US and build a team in the UK that can service those internal brands.

Jeremy Weisz 43:30 

Daniel, I have one last question. Before I ask it, I want to point people to go to to learn more about you in the company, check out more episodes of Last question. I don’t think Daniel I’ve ever asked this question before. But I would love for you to do a short tattoo walkthrough. Because I thought there’s always an interesting story of why people have a tattoo. And I noticed like when you were using your hands, there’s a couple tattoos. So I love for you to do a brief tattoo walkthrough.

Daniel James 44:10 

Yeah, am I one of the only CEOs of a media marketing agency that has face tattoos? I don’t know. I’m covered in them. So this one actually is one of my favorites. It’s the Japanese lettering for the word Kaizen, which means continuous improvement. Which is just like such a theme for me and how I live my life in business. And I’m big into my fitness and I think every day I’m trying to improve. I would say I don’t have a ton of tattoos that have much meaning. Other than this one, this one. That’s my granddad’s on my hands. And old school picture. I’ve got my daughter’s name tattooed on my wrist. Everything else is more just because I feel like it looks cool. I do have lots of portraits I’ve got Kurt Cobain, Travis Barker, my granddad Liam Gallagher. And actually on Twitter my handle is fudog85 being the year I was born and because I’ve got two Japanese food dogs tattooed on my chest.

Jeremy Weisz 45:29 

I’m tempted, but I won’t make you take your shirt off.

Daniel James 45:33 

Probably best, got about a holiday wait going on right now. So maybe in the summer.

Jeremy Weisz 45:42 

That’s a deal. No, Daniel, I want to be the first one thank you for sharing. Thank you for sharing your stories, your journey super valuable, everyone check out, and Daniel, I’m the first one to thank you.

Daniel James 45:54 

No, I appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me on. It’s been a pleasure.