Jeremy Weisz 17:30
When they came in to tell you, was it like an optimistic tone? How were they relaying how it has progressed?
Adam Viener 17:43
That’s a good question. And I don’t remember that well, it had been a rough 24 hours. I think when you look back, I think it’s harder on the family than it is on the PDB it sucks to be a patient too. I mean, there’s a lot involved with that. But for me, I had one simple job, and I had to sit there and take the chemo and try and get better. My wife was dealing with our two families. We had two young kids at the time. It a lot of work on the family and a lot of stress to keep managing everything else that’s going on in your lives while your husband’s, sitting in the hospital. And she was there every night. And my parents and her parents came in and helped with the kids. I mean, it was great. But it’s hard.
Jeremy Weisz 18:41
Really hard. It’s hard with someone not being sick. With kids everything. So you have something like that on it’s really difficult. How did that change your mentality going forward in life or business in general?
Adam Viener 19:03
For me, I’ve always been one to focus on the future and not look back too much. I think it gave me a perspective of what was important, you know, spending time with my family not sitting in an office all day. I started, the one first of all, covering the health insurance and figuring that out and making sure that my family could survive that was number one and then quickly finding out I how do I restructure things. So I’m not sitting in an office all day and I can be around for my kids and have the flexibility to do the things that I want to do with them.
Jeremy Weisz 19:47
So I mentioned you’re not a typical agency. Right. So you start off and you’re doing you’re driving traffic for one company from an affiliate perspective. To talk about the evolution of them, what do you do after that?
Adam Viener 20:05
That model is held out throughout time. So as what we call a performance marketing agency, we pay for all the advertising, we take all the risk, if something doesn’t convert, we will lose money. If it converts, we make money. And that can be tricky as conversion rates change and competition changes in the search space, the cost per clicks go up. We’ve had to develop our own technology that helps us track and manage those values for every click and determine what the bid prices should be to make sure that we can continue to be profitable on those search campaigns. Otherwise, we’d be losing money. And a lot of times when we start a new client we’ll lose money for the first three months, we figure out what works and weed out the things that don’t work is a huge part of it. I mean, there’s a lot of stuff that just doesn’t, isn’t profitable, based on the commission rates that were being paid. So we need to make sure that we’re coming in at a decent commission rate, understand what their average order values are for their clients and the conversion rates and see, what is a reasonable starting cost per click to test something out to see if it’s going to work or not.
Jeremy Weisz 21:28
Yeah, like I mentioned, you’re not typical agency, but you have large brands as clients and talk about, not talk specific numbers, but how does the arrangement typically work? Because you’re, again, spending your own money on these campaigns.
Adam Viener 21:47
Right, so we’re typically considered a publisher through their affiliate program, and affiliates get a bad rap sometimes there are a lot of different types of affiliates in the affiliate marketing space. For us, we’re using the affiliate platform as a tracking mechanism so that we can pass a unique ID with every click and know that for the most part, that is something convergent as to how we’re going to get credit for it, or we’re going to get paid for it. So it’s easier for us to develop our platform, which we call bid miner, it’s easier for us to develop bid miners through the API’s of the large affiliate networks, and deal with each networks tracking technology, and their reporting than to do it one at a time for every brand. It’s through any kind of individual tracking program they might have. So for new clients, they need to make sure that they’re in one of the large affiliate networks that we’re currently operating through.
Jeremy Weisz 22:55
How do you choose? Right? Because I mean, I don’t know if anyone really says no, we don’t want you working with us out. I mean, it seems kind of like a no lose situation for them. You’re spending your own money if you don’t make money. So I don’t know, if you get people like yeah, we don’t really want to do this, or they’re already agreed to it. But how do you choose what companies you want to work with?
Adam Viener 23:21
That’s a good question. And if all of our conversations were with the CFOs of the company, that would be the response that we would get, because there is no risk, then. Unfortunately, a lot of our conversations are either with the affiliate manager who’s managing that affiliate program. And there are other people involved, you’ve got the search agency to come to brand may have hired their internal search team. And there are a lot of players in the next who don’t typically understand exactly what we do and how it’s incremental and how it doesn’t affect their internal search efforts. In the old days, we would go into the affiliate network, we check off a box to join a program and we would test it, even have to have a conversation because no, nobody cared. They just wanted to say out. Now it’s a lot more of a discussion we discuss with the client, how we operate how we’re not going to go in and bid on their trademarks, how we’re going to work with them to figure out what are the negative keywords we need to add in and make sure the search engines don’t try and show us on specific trademark terms. So we go through that process to make sure everyone’s comfortable. Sometimes we’ll have a call with their agency. So it’s become much more of a collaborative approach. And there are a lot of companies that say no, because either their agency tells them no. And they feel it manager says no, the agency said no, that happens a lot more than you think. Or there’s just a general misunderstanding or mistrust. Aston affiliates in general. And we get lumped into that mix, unfortunately.
Jeremy Weisz 25:05
So there’s not many reasons they know, but they’re saying maybe the agency they’re working with, they say no, because they’re worried that maybe you’re going to drive up their costs, if they’re driving traffic, right. And they’re thinking what you’re going to do is going to affect what they’re currently doing.
Adam Viener 25:25
Correct. There’s that. And I think there’s also a perception with internal search teams, or agencies that if someone else is able to drive a sale via search that they didn’t get them, are they not doing what they’re supposed to be doing. And that perception is just not reality. The type of terms that the agency is going to be managing for a brand with the budgets they’re provided, are completely different than the type of terms we’re going to be going after. And because we’re driving traffic directly, our traffic lands on the brand site directly. That means that Google are both using the same display URL, and Google is only going to show one of our ads on any query. So if they’re already running an ad there at the value that we’re able, the bid pricing that we’re able to bid on, based on our commission rates and stuff, we’re just not going to be trumping their ads in those scenarios. So we’re really only showing up on terms they’re just not on. And since the pre-auction happens that way, and only one ad shows, our ads don’t affect their final cost, either, because we get dropped out before the costs are determined.
Jeremy Weisz 26:43
Because there is a misconception. We were talking about this before we hit record, which is, let’s say a company has a large budget, and they feel like they’re covering everything with that large budget. Yeah, then what do you tell those type of companies like, no, Adam, we got it all covered, we’re spending hundreds of 1000s, or whatever they’re spending,
Adam Viener 27:05
We hear that a lot. We’ve worked with brands who have had 30 people running internal search for them. That’s 30 salaries plus the cost per for the advertising. They say, we have everything covered in search. But what happens is, you still have a budget, and you may have a lot covered in search. But there’s still a long tail of search terms that just probably aren’t being covered. And if you do have it covered, then we don’t find anything in you know, pay anything, because you’re only paying us if we generate sales. So there’s no skin off your back to let us try that we’ll try and say hey, well, let’s do a small test. Let’s do a small test in a certain geography. So you can watch your internal metrics to make sure that what we do doesn’t affect your ads, we’ll do whatever we can to try and get them to understand and let us prove that what we do can drive incremental sales. And most of the times we’re able to find pockets of keywords that they’re not on that convert. Usually in the longtail a lot of these agencies in terms teams are using tools that charge them per keyword, they manage bid prices. So to have a term that has five clicks a month, but one of those is the conversion is an economical for an agency and for us, we’ll take 1000 of those terms all day long, because that’s our bread and butter.
Jeremy Weisz 28:39
When you’re sending traffic, do you have them or do you create some kind of custom landing page? Or are you sending it to a page on their site? Because I feel like you know, you’re spending a lot of money. I’m sure you want to optimize as much as possible so that someone is either taking the action you want them to take or whether it’s a sale or an opt-in of an email, how do you manage the creative part?
Adam Viener 29:03
So nine times out of 10, we’re driving the traffic direct their site, through the affiliate links. That’s what allows our traffic to be incremental and not affect our internal prices. If we had a landing page, that would mean we’d have a different display URL, and then our efforts would show up and we have some brands that have come to us and say, hey, we really want that we want to take up an extra space on some of these terms that are competitive, and some of our competitors are there. And they’ve either had us build a landing page or help us build a landing page. Typically using their brand term, so it’s an offshoot of theirs and it looks like them because at the end of the day, we’re not advertising Imwave. We’re advertising the client. So we don’t want to put up anything that’s going to reduce the conversion rate We don’t do any email marketing. So we’re not capturing email addresses and building email lists. And some people think that we’re leaving a lot of money on the table by not doing that, and they’re probably right. But that’s just not our business model, our technology tracks the individual keywords, and then automatically expands those terms into the longtail based on the queries that is spawning. So we’re able to set up a campaign and our system grows it for us. And so we drive the traffic to read because we’re marketing, then we’re not marketing us. And at the end of the day, it’s their clients. We’re getting paid an upfront commission rate. And in some cases, the lifetime value of the customer is theirs. And we’re not capturing a lot of that, based on the commission terms. It’d be nice if we were. But that’s just not the way most affiliate programs are set up.
Jeremy Weisz 30:56
Yeah, I asked is, so when you get paid when someone buys? Or what’s the action? Yeah, that’s not easy.
Adam Viener 31:05
Each brand has their own terms. So it’s what is a conversion for that brand, you may have one brand that pays on a percentage of sale, you may have one brand that pays a different percentage of sale based on a new if it’s a new client or existing client, you have brands who pay on an on a per lead basis, you have brands who pay on the travel space on this day, right, so you may get a booking for a hotel room now. And then if they don’t stay for three months, it doesn’t turn into a commissionable payment until three months, and then maybe another three months until after that, that we actually see the money. So there are some cases where we’re fronting quite a bit of money in order to based on the trust that we have with our partners in long-term relationships that we’re building. there’s
Jeremy Weisz 31:24
Yeah, cuz a lot of factors that you don’t have control over in this whole scenario. Right? So I imagine you don’t work with people I imagine if you look at their page, they’re like, I don’t even see how someone they hit this, this is gonna convert, I don’t know, do you give suggestions to the company on the kind of conversion rate optimization things for the site, are they pretty much you’re only working with companies that have that dialed in?
Adam Viener 32:23
Well, we prefer to work with companies have that dialed in. If we see something and we’re talking to the brand, or the brands outsource agency contact for their affiliate program, we’ll mention that, we typically ask them what conversion rates they’re seeing up front and their AOV. So if we multiply the AOV and the conversion rate, our commission rate, we get a break-even cost per click. If that’s low, we won’t even touch it. If it’s decent, where we think we have room to be able to bid on stuff. Then we’ll run a test and see if we can get it to work. But the truth is, some brands just don’t work. Some are tracking all sales, the affiliate tracking technology has changed over time where cookies have been deprecated for the most part. So technologies have changed, quite frankly, a lot of affiliate networks, they may track a percent of the sales and they’re okay with that. But no, if they were a credit card company that was only cashing 80% of sales, that wouldn’t be acceptable.
Jeremy Weisz 33:32
I want to talk about, you have a lot of different genres. There was a large hotel company, I want to talk about that for a second, but it almost seems like a no-brainer, right? Like, why would someone want to work with you who should be contacting you? If someone’s listening, maybe they have partner opportunities, what kind of companies should be contacting you.
Adam Viener 33:57
Any company that has an established affiliate program in the major affiliate networks like Commission Junction ShareASale Rakuten Impact Radius, we work with about seven or eight different affiliate networks. So if you have an established affiliate program through one of the major networks, we can work with you. That’s the prerequisite. Our technology pulls in all the daily transactions from those networks and allows us to pass our unique click ideas with every click so that we can identify what’s working and what’s not. So that’s the prerequisite. So if you’re an affiliate manager or you’re an owner of a company that has an established affiliate program, then that reach out to us and we can start a conversation.
Jeremy Weisz 34:51
Are there any niches you don’t do?
Adam Viener 34:55
Yeah, so for us, it’s making sure that the search engines allow the niches right. So, our ads will get shut down for advertising, anything with firearms and things like that. So if the brand’s not able to run their own ads in Google and Bing, then we’re probably not going to be a fit. Some brands are harder to run in search than others. And we’re happy if we have a good contact to get the right permissions in place with our Google accounts to make sure that we can run those campaigns, we’re happy to go through the effort for good brands make that happen. But typically, if their ads are getting disapproved by Google, then we’re not interested.
Jeremy Weisz 35:44
Talk about just people can understand a little bit deeper, from a large hotel company standpoint, how that worked.
Adam Viener 35:54
So, we’ve worked with a number of large hotel companies that have hotels all around the world. And for us, we’ve had scenarios where, at one point, the brand wanted to test with us, but they wanted to only have us run in certain hours, because their current marketing budget was running out. And they found it was most effective for their conversion rate and profitability to advertise during the day. But they didn’t want to give up everything at night, they just didn’t want to use their marketing budget on it. So they came to us. And we’ve done that, that quickly grew into an understanding that are in effect their stuff, and allowed us to run internationally, we’ve had other hotel companies say, hey, we only want you to run in certain markets. So we want you to run in Italy or Germany, but we don’t want you to run in the US. We try and work with companies to understand what they’re doing and what they’re comfortable with. And they help them understand that what we’re doing is incremental and is going to drive up the cost. But sometimes you have to niche it out to prove that to them before they’ll open up the full opportunity. The tricky part is I said that some hotel companies, we’ve worked with companies where no one hotel company, it’s from booking the stay is typically an average seven days, we’ve had others where it can be seven months, and it’s a little bit harder for us. But if we’re seeing good conversion rates, we’ll fund a campaign knowing that it’s going to take that long to get paid, if it’s profitable.
Jeremy Weisz 37:36
I’m curious how you decided on pricing? Because it seems like you are taking a huge risk with each campaign that you do. I’m curious why. I don’t know if you ever charged an upfront setup fee or anything. Why you decided on basically, it seems like it’s just you’re taking the risk, and you’ll get the reward? Did you ever play around with different pricing models.
Adam Viener 38:06
There are occasions where we have some brands that our model is just not profitable for us to keep running. But is still generating sales for them. And they still want those sales. But we’ve gone in and we’ve said, you know, we’re going to need a media contribution of x, and we’ll spend some of your money towards that. So we have some clients where we’ve done that, or they’ll come to us and say, hey, we really want you on these terms as well. And they’re more head terms that don’t have a conversion rate that will be problem for us. And we’ll have them fund those campaigns. But 99% of the stuff we do, we’re taking 100% of the risk on. And for us, it’s testing a bunch of stuff to see what’s going to work and what’s not. We’ve had brands in the same industry where one brand converts and the other one doesn’t. Right. So once proper of the other is not profitable. The tricky part is often that note, from a brand perspective, their affiliate manager seeing sales come in, but they don’t see our costs. So they may say hey, you just drove $10,000 with the sales for us this week. This is great. And I look at and say that’s great, but, no, you got $10,000 in sales. I got 10% commission, right. I made $1,000 in commission. I paid $1,200 for those sales, and this isn’t working for me, but they’ve seen it this is great. You’re driving traffic or driving sales. There a lot of times they don’t see that. The other thing we get all the time which drives me crazy is in the affiliate space, there’s a general mistrust of affiliates. Right, so you’re dealing with that plus they have different commission rates. So the commission rate you see in affiliate network per brand is typically their base rate. And it’s not typically not even close to their top rate of what they’re willing to pay for a sale. And a lot of times, they’ll say to us, hey, we’ll start you off at the base rate. And if you prove yourself, we’re going to increase your commission. And we just won’t even start a campaign like that, because there’s no room to find profitable keywords at the base commission, typically, right. And if we find a bunch of stuff that loses money, our system is just going to shut it off. And when they come back with two months later, say, hey, we could have paid you twice as much. Now, it’s a lot harder to go back and say, okay, well, if we had been paid that this keyword be profitable, so business, it just doesn’t work. So we say, okay, give us your top commission rate for a test period of three months, understand that we’re gonna lose money in the first three months, as we throw money at this stuff and start weeding out the things that don’t convert for us and turn those off, though. So we’ll lose money in the first month, we’ll start finding things that are profit and earning it back in the second and hopefully become profitable in the third. That’s our model. So we typically ask for a three-month test period and start us off at your highest rate. If it’s not working for you at the end of that three months, then we can talk about lowering it, it’s a lot easier for us to lower our bids than to try and increase them after we’ve already lost a couple $1,000.
Jeremy Weisz 41:30
Yeah, seems like a no brainer. I mean, you’re taking all the risk, essentially,
Adam Viener 41:35
It should be a no-brainer. But at the end of the day, there are turf wars, again, if we’re talking to the CFO, 100%, and all of our revenue should be considered cost of goods sold, because we only get paid if there’s a commission. Right. But I can’t tell you how many times we’ll get a no, the agency said no. Okay, I mean, they just shut the door, or they’ll say, oh, we’re out of budget. Right, you have to turn off your email on a successful campaign. And we’ll have to turn it off, we were working with the gap once. And in q4, they came to us and said, we have to turn everything off because we’re out of budget. So, in the busiest time of the year, one of the most popular brands in the world, decides they’re going to shut off their affiliate program, because their marketing budget done, and this is falling under the marketing budget, and they’re just out, turn off sales, we can’t afford it.
Jeremy Weisz 42:41
It seems a bit counterintuitive, because if it was a profitable campaign, then like you did in the beginning, you just want to put as many dollars into the campaign and get more out. So there’s no real budget there, it seems like to me, it’s profitable.
Adam Viener 42:56
There should not be. And for us, there’s not and we’ll look through as much money as we can at a profit campaign. We just had a client the other day, who made his turn-off, because the increase was so big that I didn’t believe it. We started out at a $10 budget for small campaign to see if this stuff would even convert it off, we went up to a couple $100 And increased a lot. And then we took the cap off because it was working and all of a sudden, I don’t know, we see a lot of crazy stuff. But again, if at the end of the day, we were talking to the CFO or the owners of the businesses, you’re right it should be a no brainer and it is a no brainer but working through the powers that be to convince them to a lot of times these affiliate managers that we have to end up talking to you are pretty low on the totem pole in these companies that are given the respect of the job that they have for the amount of effort that it takes to manage the affiliate program. And the hundreds or 1000s of affiliates they’re working with and they’re all different you have affiliate like us who’s doing search this affiliate like Yazing that we’ll talk about later. That’s more influencer monetization and cashback loyalty-type stuff. They’re all different. But we all get lumped together because at the end of the day, we’re all using the same tracking platform to get a commission on a sale.
Jeremy Weisz 43:18
I want to talk about Yazing in a second. But a lot of times I find the interviews, there’s a lot of different ways for growth, right? There’s organic growth, there’s also growth through acquisition, and you acquired a competitor in 2008. How does that process work?
Adam Viener 44:48
So back in that time, search was a lot bigger part of the affiliate networks than it is today. A lot of companies haven’t built the technology they need to ensure their profitability going forward. And as costs and competition increased, things became a lot less profitable. But at one point, there were six of us that really were driving the bulk of the search traffic. And we came together to talk about a potential roll up scenario where we become one large company, I think when we put the numbers together, it would have been over $100 million company at that time. But at the end of the day, everyone thought the technology they have was the data, that their valuations were high, and no one wanted to run the company. So the guy I had brought in to help pull all the numbers together, said, you got about a 2% chance of pulling it together. I didn’t want to run the company. So, it was one of those scenarios that people were looking for a potential exit strategy, but they weren’t sure how to make that happen. So after we left that, one of the companies in that six was acquired by Rakuten. And one of the other companies came to me. And they were having a situation where the two partners just wanted to go separate ways and do different things. And we found a way to make that work. So that’s how that came to be. We had already started building our bid monitor platform at that time, which would help manage and run our campaigns, we acquired their campaigns, we kept their salesperson and the other 11 people they had running search campaigns weren’t part of the deal. And we didn’t take them.
Jeremy Weisz 44:57
Is it because of the technology, basically, you didn’t need that many people because of the technology.
Adam Viener 46:57
Correct. So we’ve built technology to allow us to leverage and manage our search campaigns so that we don’t have to keep layering on more and more people to make it work.
Jeremy Weisz 47:10
And that technology that you’re talking about, add on that as an internal technology, people can’t like an agency or someone cannot use that or purchase it from you.
Adam Viener 47:23
That is correct. We’ve built the latest version of our bid minor platform with an eye towards the possibility of making it a SaaS model, where any small business would be able to utilize it to manage and grow their campaigns. So we’re building towards that direction. But we’re also not the type of company that’s set up to do that. So it’d be nice to find a partner who has experienced in that space who can help us get to that level. But our current build is set up that Imwave as customer number one. And then we would just have to add on the different conversion tracking technologies that a small business would be able to utilize. So it wouldn’t be so tied to the affiliate platform, and then our system would be able to grow and manage their campaigns in a very hands-off way. So that’s the future idea. Right now, we’re just using it as customer zero and using it to manage our business.
Jeremy Weisz 48:29
Yeah, there was a guest I had on so maybe an interesting conversation at some point that I had Eric Huberman of Hawk Media, and they did that where they then offered a software solution that they were using internally. So I’ll send that to you. Maybe that conversation is in store for both of you in the future. You right, um, I do want to talk about Yazing for a second. And what that is, and why you started that as well, because you’re busy enough with Imwave.
Adam Viener 49:10
So luckily was Imwave, the first hire i made was my old business partner, Tony. And Tony, I hired him as our CEO. And he really helped me manage Imwave so that I can no focus on some other stuff. So I had this idea of being involved in the affiliate space for all these years. Brands are all sending coupons all the times and deals and I had this idea that, for the most part, the average consumer doesn’t have access to the affiliate programs. They don’t have access to the commission rates. There are some cashback sites I guess, Ebates, at the time, was acquired by Rakuten, where you could get some cash back and they typically keep about 50% of the Commission’s for themselves. I had this idea that I could create a site where anyone could join for free, get instant access to promote any of the brands they want, and basically become an affiliate without having to try and join the affiliate network, try and join an individual program. And there’s a lot of rejection involved in the affiliate marketing process. When I first started Yazing and applied to the Rakuten network, I guess Linkshare at the time, they rejected me because they didn’t know who I was. And then I had to tell them, from Imwave and all the rest of it already had that relationship and they get approved. So there’s a lot of rejection that’s involved, and then once you do get accepted, then you have to understand the affiliate link structure, you have to figure out how to promote them, you’ve got to track down your commissions and make sure that you have all the payments stuff set up. So I set up Yazing anybody can join, anyone can use it for cashback get the commissions for themselves. We give 100% of the commissions that were offered for the affiliate channel. At the end of the day when we send payouts we keep a small 10% services and processing fee. So we basically keep 10% of the earnings. That’s how we make money. But anyone can join, anyone can use it for cashback and anyone can promote any brand they want on a site. So when you’re logged in, what you’re looking at now or the shopper buttons, if you clicked on, say Walgreens shopped around, what you’ll see is…
Jeremy Weisz 51:35
I go to Walgreens all the time, I want to save money.
Adam Viener 51:37
This is the landing page that someone sees if you’re not a member, right? If you are a member if you join or log in, then in the upper right, you’ll see the commission rate that’s available. And if you add to the end of your URL, where it says Walgreens, add slash Adam, you’ll see what it looks like if I had referred you to the site. So if you clicked on my affiliate link, which is my username at the end, now it shows up and says Oh, you were referred by Adam. It shows my icon there my little avatar and it has that reward information, rollover. And it says that I will earn commissions on these transaction, the page and deals are exactly the same, the user still gets the same deal. They’re 20% off any coupon codes that are available. Most people don’t understand there’s a commission involved with every transaction on the internet. So all they’re looking for is the deal. So now I’ve turned every individual into their own coupon code site. I marked this page slash Adam, you’ll notice that slash Adams gone from the affiliate from the URL. But now it’s shown here. So if you click shop now that you will then go to Walgreens, you can make that purchase the commission will be earned and the account Adam will get paid for that. If you put in the URL slash Sarah at the end, and then my wife would earn the commissions. And you’ll also notice that when you come through this URL, there are no more links to join Yazing there’s no more signup button? This is just a referral. And if you go to a different brand, it’s still going to be referred by that member.
Jeremy Weisz 51:40
So people can use it for themselves or they can share with family or whoever they want essentially.
Adam Viener 53:32
Right. And what we want to do is make it available as a platform for any micro-influencer to monetize any referral that they’re going to make, hey you should go check out this deal at Walmart, well, the average individual is not going to get into the Walmart affiliate program, it’s not going to happen, but they can market Walmart today through Yazing. The only difference is that you have to land the traffic on our field pages. Our deals are automatically set in and updated every 20 minutes through a platform that we’ve subscribed to, to make sure that we have the latest deals available. And then once we get paid by the brands then we send out automatically send PayPal payments to our members so all payments go out via PayPal. So we simplify the whole process.
Jeremy Weisz 54:26
Love it first of all, Adam I’m gonna be the first one to thank you. Thank you for sharing your knowledge your journey. It’s been pretty crazy journey and I want to just point people towards to learn more in like I mentioned you can go to Imwave.com. Literally the letter Imwave and or Yazing.com which is yazing.com. So, Adam, thank you. Thanks everyone for listening. See you next time.
Adam Viener 54:56
Thanks Jeremy. Appreciate it.
