Jeremy Weisz 12:30
Sujan you have the sales and marketing and business side, you obviously are not the technical person. So early on, how did you build what we see now as Mailshake?
Sujan Patel 12:42
Yeah, so early on the goal. But early on, my strategy was, let’s go find a technical co-founder. And so I found a technical co-founder. I found them on Twitter. And so still, okay. Pro-tip, if you’re CEO, convert technical, a CTO or technical founder, product, makers of products on Product Hunt, are great folks to be able to build stuff, not very different than a CTO. So if you need the CTO of a higher CTO, but if you want a founder-type product person, that’s great place. But yeah, I found a one-product cut by loose fits evolve now that we’ve done about 11 companies in this past seven years. So Mailshake was the first one. And during that process, it was very painful for two years. Well, it’s I don’t think it was ever not painful. But the first two years were very painful because we were pre-product market fit. And during that time, I was like, I’m never doing this again. Why don’t I just stick to my strengths and buy software companies. And then scale them right, let me just go buy something and million dollars. And so we ended up buying stuff. Another partner of mine, I ended up working with an ex DC angel investor named Bob Senoff, who is now my partner in rap ventures and all the deals we do together. He’s more of a finance guy, COO and understands technology where he can manage developers or manage like, I’d say like CTO, director of engineering type folks. And so to this day, don’t have to worry about finance, and HR and technical stuff and aka all the stuff I don’t like to do, but is very necessary, and I probably suck at. Bob and I met he was an angel investor in one of my during the single grant days. One of our ideas was to buy exact match domains and build websites on them and turn them into Legion. So I I came from a b2c background, in travel insurance, mortgage, stuff like that, where we’d be selling the lead. And so we went into those three industries. It was not a good ROI for Bob or any of those angel investors, but I was able to return the probably 80% of the money. One algorithm update, knock the whole business out, which was the exact match update, effectively removing that as an advantage from their algorithm, which, da hindsight, but yeah. So anyways, Bob and I met 2010. He was happy I returned 80% of his money. And he just been kind of an unofficial mentor I’ve been telling him about Mailshake and all this stuff. And we got to working on another company at the same time Narrow with another developer. So Mailshake and Narrow started at the same exact time, and both actually worked. Narrow, we ended up selling a few years later. And during this process, we like, building is really hard. And so like, let’s start buying stuff. Well, I didn’t have any money to buy stuff. Bob is well-connected in the financial world. And so he did all the math and modeling and stuff like that based off my inputs. Because I was like, Bob, I can grow companies, I can operate them, I can do sales, marketing, we know how to do the product side, I just need the other like, I need a developer to build this stuff. I don’t even know how to recruit. Now, the reality is I could probably like have, I could have learned more areas and gotten better. But I really think fast forward seven years, that has worked well to be doing things we’re both, I’d say excellent at, versus me trying to do it all on bigger pieces of pie. But anyways, long story short, we raised some capital and bought a company called Walleye, Norbert. And then we kind of doing that rinsing and repeating. Meanwhile, same in parallel Mailshake is struggling to get product market fit. And then it does. All right, so we buy three companies, and then Mailshake gets product market fit and then takes off. All right. Meanwhile, now we have more freaking companies to run. And this thing is growing fast. In hindsight, if I had just waited six months, like magically known the future and waited six months, I would just place should have stuck to doing just one company Mailshake Because it took off. But that didn’t happen the right timeline. And so I was like why we raised money from various folks and bought companies. I’m obligated, I’m just gonna stop and go chase another shiny object. And then these companies are growing too. So that’s how I ended up getting into running multiple companies at the same time. And, by the way, that is also my best my skill set. I’m really good at switching gears, and I love it. What I love about running for a company is I get a dopamine hit from every four companies every day all the time, right? One company gets this. The team goes and does it. We talked about strategy. And then like the team has to execute. And while I’m waiting, which I’m very impatient, I can go play around with another company, right? And so I’m constantly getting these like this work. This didn’t work. Dopamine hits from like this working. I’m like, oh, that’s awesome. And then shared learning, which is like, we do something crazy in one company, and then it works. And then guess what? It’s now part of our playbook. And we can kind of roll it out multiple times.
Jeremy Weisz 18:42
Sujan, at this point, Mailshake’s taking off, you still three other companies? What do you do from a staffing perspective there? How do you divide your time?
Sujan Patel 18:53
So my belief in these small SaaS companies, they kind of like things under 10 million, you don’t really need a CEO? Well, let me put it this way. It’s not a lot of work to manage them. If you have a good team. So for us the goal, we’re effectively built a private equity or micro private equity company, buy companies under $5 million in annual revenue, you need a team, right? I can’t run details of every single company, nor do I have a skill set. So day one was always about team building. Right? Ideally need enough revenue to be able to hire teams. And so that’s where the agency days come in. I was like, okay, I know the marketing team cost-effectively. So we put that in day one. My partner knows how to hire devs that we hire like a director of development of something and then we built our teams that way. So these companies are built to sell and what is a very big thing that’s involved there, which is they’re all if any day, somebody’s like, hey, I’m going to give you millions of bucks for this company. I could turn it and sell it in 30 days or less. And so we’re not playing the shared resource game, where there’s cost efficiency of running multiple companies, each team will go along with the team with the company. And so, effectively, I have a marketing person reporting to me, a salesperson reporting to be a customer support person reporting to me, a product person reporting to me, at each company. Now, hopefully, we’re hiring good people. And or will, like, you know, unfortunately, will get fired if they’re not good. And we’ve replaced him with someone good. But I have 14 meetings with four companies every week, so I don’t have that many conversations to have, right? And then we were like, well, let’s figure out the cadence and all this stuff. So we implemented EOS eventually, entrepreneurial organizational system or operating system.
Jeremy Weisz 20:57
I’ve had Gino Wickman on the podcast.
Sujan Patel 21:01
Yeah. And so, there’s a lot of different frameworks out there, we look at scaling up, we look at, like OKRs. And this one just kind of fit. So each of our company is somewhere between 10 and 50 employees. I’m not at that time, but like, that’s kind of where we’re at today. And it’s a great system for me to keep a pulse on what’s going on the team to know very clearly what their goals or rocks are, and then for all of us to know, whether we’re doing, it’s working or not working, it’s a very like, one and zero, it’s either working and we’re hitting our numbers, or it’s not, and we need to adjust, right. And so I’ve got these meetings, 30-minutes, per team. And like was, are we doing the thing? Like they show the scorecard like, yeah, it’s working, okay, we don’t need to chat about bullshit, let’s just move on to the next thing, right. And they appreciate the transparency and, and then vice versa. If there was a problem, I’m going to dig in. We’re going to dig in and try to solve this problem. So anyways, yes, long story short, EOS was really helpful. And just hiring, I would always pay up for more experience. So really strong individual contributors who can operate independently, or always hiring every company needs having a managers of sorts.
Jeremy Weisz 22:36
Before we hit record, who we’re talking about how to buy a company how to sell a company. And if we take a look here, if you’re watching the video part, you can see we’re at rampventures.com, and says, we buy SaaS companies and some of the SaaS companies under the Ramp Ventures umbrella here. So what are you looking for in the purchase of a company?
Sujan Patel 23:03
Yeah, that’s great question. So what I’m effectively looking for is something around a million to $2 million a year where the founder is looking to exit and keep their baby alive, right? Every company we buy, we do more with like, we’re adding more product, we’re adding more functionality like, we’re gonna grow it, it’s gonna be like five, 10 years from now, you can brag about the company, and it’ll make you look better. So when he goes to the website, but long story short, yeah, million to $2 million a year b2b SaaS, we don’t do enterprise companies. So if you’re selling to enterprise, probably not, we’re not the right buyers. And that’s just not our playbook. And our playbook is simple for everyone wants to know, we will do good marketing, good sales, expand the product offering, either add features or expand the product itself into other multiple products. And make sure we operate this company correctly.
Jeremy Weisz 24:20
So in this situation, Sujan is the founder is not going to stay with the company. So if there’s a situation where they’re like, I want to stay on and still work, that would also not be a fit.
Sujan Patel 24:33
No, yeah. So we would be buying 90 to 100% of the business and so we can keep the founders on like five 10%. We’ve done that occasion. But the real thing is to buy the whole thing and operate it and we want the founder out from operational perspective because, well, if they could have grown it they would have right, but that’s not to say that they can’t. But that’s not a dynamic we’re really good at, like I said, we’re kind of micro private equity where we’re gonna operate it. And we want to run it our way, because I know it works. And then I also know when it doesn’t how to fix it to make it work, right by add another blank variable there. I think it’s going to break things, or it’s too risky.
Jeremy Weisz 25:31
Yeah, I mean, you’ve proven a certain model that works for you. And that’s what you’re going with? Is there any cross-selling ion when you acquire a company? Do you have a strategy? Because it’s b2b not enterprise, do any of these tie together where you can then go, oh, we have all these 70,000, Mailshake users? This may be good for them. Do you do a cross-selling campaign? How does that work?
Sujan Patel 25:58
So the answer is yes, sometimes, but it’s not intentional. So that is not the main factor when buying your companies, unless one of our companies is buying a company. So Mailshake has done two acquisitions. Norbert done one right. It has not done any. But Norbert and Mailshake have, like Mailshake is a customer of Norbert. We use their API, we offer email verification. So it wasn’t the intention to be in the email space. It was we found good companies and we got a we know the risk factor was lower because hey, we know email, right? We know this. So it’s not our preference to be an email. So we’re two categories, email, I’d say in sales, sales related to email, and then HR tech. Zoom shift, I think there might be other website is another one that we’re operating right now that’s in the HR tech, so scheduling software. I much prefer the HR tech space. And the reason is, HR tech is usually a need to have not a nice to have, like our customers at zoom shift could not operate without the software, hence, our churn is very low and no churn.
Jeremy Weisz 27:22
What are the factors that you look at from a valuation perspective?
Sujan Patel 27:28
So I’m looking at growth, I’m expecting little growth. I’m okay with no growth, as long as we will look at it, if it’s declining, usually, it’s going to be a pass, I’m also looking at how big the team is, where you’re spending money the PNL looking back kind of two years, looking at traffic, so in the perfect world, we’ll buy a company with a small team, doing a million dollars a year, and the team would come with the company, again, maybe like three to five people max. And then they have some growth going on. And then not a lot of marketing or sales. Or maybe they’ve tried it and you know what, hasn’t really worked? Or they’re trying it, and it’s working. Right? Like, that’s cool, too.
Jeremy Weisz 28:35
You have a lot of moving pieces here a lot of companies in general, is there a certain number per year that you have a goal of we’d like to at least look at X number per year and make X number of acquisitions a year.
Sujan Patel 28:55
So the hard work is when we buy the company for like six months, it’s like appstore being building the team like I’m like in the weeds and everything, making sure everything’s good. So I have bandwidth to buy two companies here, right, six months. I’m looking at deals every single day. I don’t know what the number is somewhere in the hundreds of deals a month having serious deals like so that’s deals I like casually look at a pdf, the description of it five or 10 realistic views of detailed versions of what kind of in negotiations always with one or two and negotiate and by the way, it failed venture or failed, like Steve companies are great fits for us too. Some of our best companies have been failed, failed venture companies. Put this way, I’m not finding get to a billion-dollar valuation. My goal was to five to 10x the company over the course of five years, and or longer, I want to build forever companies that are run like they’re sellable. And a very important reason why those two things are factors forever companies really defines like, is this a not a need or want, right? And so it leans towards the need. It’s just by various nature of the sentence. And then sellable, meaning, it’s profitable, the team is running the company, I’m a lot more hands off, we hire the right people, the metrics are good, like NRR is good. Growth rate is good. They’re profitable, right. So like, the clean book, bill of health, like meaning, like, the books are good in standing order, the code is well documented, again, like, those are things that are kind of tiny, when you’re operating, and you probably don’t even think about it. So like, if you’re a CEO of a company, and you’re running any company, it’s not like, if you didn’t have it, it would be a bad thing. But I guarantee you, when a company comes up by you, and you don’t have it, you’re gonna be a whole lot of pain. Or you can make mistakes, like I did, when I didn’t have a CFO telling me, I was charging too little. And that at certain amount of employees scale of number of clients, I would be like not making money. That’s where it hurts you. So it hurts you down the road. So anyways, yeah, that’s why I say I want to be sellable. But I want to run it forever.
Jeremy Weisz 31:44
Sujan, we won’t go as far as mistakes, but maybe learnings that you took from one acquisition to another, you’re like, well, I would do this differently next time. What are some of those learnings that you took in the past acquisitions that you’ve had?
Sujan Patel 32:01
Yeah, so here’s some rapid fire ones. Don’t buy companies with a high concentration of cost of revenue from one or small group of customers, we did that huge mistake, we lost that customer effectively, it was one and that was like 7% revenue lost overnight. Anyways, or if you do it, like, structure your earn-out, or like, the deal around that risk. Number two is I would not buy a declining industry. So I won’t mention the names of these companies or whatever, that hit these things. But we bought a business in a declining space. Well, like slightly declining or is too old, like years last gen stuff and until effectively, like, it was just like, even if we grew the thing, the traffic was in a downward trend. It’s like growth hacking today is such a like, miniscule thing when I launched an e-book on it in 2014. It was good. It was the hottest thing ever right? But now you can’t get enough of ChatGPthree or ChatGPT right and so like I try not to buy trendy businesses fads as well. So we’re both go and then what’s the other thing the last thing I’d say is like don’t keep the founder around and that’s just what works for me if you’re going to operate it, is to type A personalities that don’t know each other. Right? And there’s no amount of like getting to know you that would do it. I usually find that one person has to go and if I bought the company I’m not going anywhere I want my investment to do something right and so again, that’s my playbook because we are operating it. If you’re a typical PE model is you might not be operating you might be operating at the board level trying to drive the strategy and that could work fine but I’m trying to pump a whole lot of life into it.
Jeremy Weisz 34:14
Yeah, that’s hugely valuable Sujan, I love that. Talk about on the flip side right how to sell a company.
Sujan Patel 34:27
All right so there’s a whole like making sure your company is sellable right clean bought like clean finances all that stuff I bought. I’ve talked about a bunch of times right but like that’s important. I think there’s a good book by Bo Burlingham called Finish Big. Read that book. So prerequisite one is read that book. What it will effectively teach you is what you want out of your company. Whatever you want listed out today, like if you want to sell in 10 years listed out today, keep adding to that list, you and it’s whatever it is on that list, it’s okay, whatever it is on that list and be transparent with the buyer saying, I want these things. So here’s a good example of an intangible thing. So a lot of things money can’t buy, money can’t buy keeping your employees around, because you really think you build a solid team, right? I want to keep my legacy this company, I’ve built hard work, sweat, tears, whatever, I want this to be around, I don’t want to be killed in an acquisition or whatever, right? Oftentimes, it happens, it happens more often than not. Whatever it is, like, I’m buying failed venture deals, I’m buying failed Angel, or you might have debt you might be selling where, like, you’re not gonna get much out of it. Well, what do you personally want out of it. So like, sometimes I bought a company, and the VC is like, written it off. Like, I’ll take 50 bucks for this thing, right. Or maybe I’ll take 1000 bucks or $100,000. But the founders worked their ass off on this thing and seen not much from it. I will give the founder $100,000 as a consulting fee to make sure they get something out of this deal, right? And so list out what you want from there. Highly avoid doing earn-outs. But those are possible. And then really, if you’re in software, it’s the rule of 40. Right. So the rule 40 is simple. Your company they’re like the various edges of this is are your company has to be grown by 40%. Or you have to have 40% margins. And any way to tackle that, so you can do growing 20%. At 20% margins, that’s good, you’re going to be growing 100% and be losing 60% a year. That’s cool to rule 40 anytime you deviate from that doesn’t work. Again, that’s only specific to software. But I’d say if you’re selling your company, you want to have an indisputable 12 months of performing. Because the first thing the buyers thinking is how risky is this revenue, how risky is this deal, if I’m going to buy is it’s going to go away, you also want to be able to make sure you are zero value to the company. Okay, well as close to zero as possible, and that’s why I’m trying to get the heck out of these companies out of the way once we get them going. Point of this is like if you buy my agency, if you bought my agency single brand, and I lost, you would be buying at that thing because like 3 million in revenue, and very little leads, I was the freakin lead source, right? I have not a lead source or, like my team can run this company. Without me, right? That’s the point. So if you’re not in that position, before you sell, get in that position for at least 12 months, same thing grows, goes with like, this always happens. Not clean p&l, so you’re writing off your cars, which like all good do that stuff, right? But like, you don’t have a good p&l or like, maybe you’re spending too much here and you’re like you hadn’t fired that guy, you needed a fire? Well, you haven’t hired that, like, COO you’ve been meaning to do those all the moves you need to do 12 months before so like, for 12 months, your company needs to be performing well without you. And it needs to be like auditable, meaning like, why is this here? What’s this there? Can you cut costs here now? And the last piece of advice I’ll say is leave some upside for the buyer known like upside make it like when they look at the p&l that I can cut some fat, right? Because that’s gold that’s like, it’s free money for the buyer. And it’s like it makes your deal so buyers like I said I looked at hundreds of deals a month I don’t even know how many and constant negotiation with somebody or another right? Well, buyers have options, right? And so you want yours to be the higher value higher option the easiest thing to do as low-hanging fruit. People will usually go towards that. That’s my two cents on that matter.
Jeremy Weisz 39:27
Love it. Thanks Sujan. You mentioned this with agency part like you generate leads so we’ll talk about marketing lead versus sales lead team but before we do talk about within the revenue, what is the ranges of multiples that you’re seeing for purchasing or selling SaaS company?
Sujan Patel 39:52
Yes. So I’ll tell you it’s not what you see on TechCrunch like the exact opposite, okay, so if you’re under 10 million. So let me back up. So this is all the multiples are all derived from the buyer. And that number of buyers in this space for years. So how much money people have, right? So PE, and how much it takes to run a company. So PE usually starts at 10 million, sometimes it can go down to five, but 10 million, because they need $10 million in revenue to hire their executives and their team to go run it right? They cannot that model doesn’t work well, without that money, right? One to 10 million, I’d say is the least five to 10 million, actually the least. So. And then there’s financial and strategic. So I guess over 10 million, a financial buyer would be somewhere between, I’d say 2x on the low end, two 5x 6x on the high end, that’s all about your growth and profit margins, right like that rule 40, the higher your above 40, 4, 5x, not that big of a deal. Now, five to 10 million is kind of the nomadic lab, you could probably get the same multiples, as I mentioned above 10. But the problem is, is knowing that there’s not a lot of buyers in space, right? It’s too small for PE too small for strategic, right? If you’re going to be strategic buyer, and you only buy 5 million or $6 million in revenue, that’s like not enough to be meaningful for the work involved to absorb that company. Also, regular people just don’t have 15 to $50 million laying around, right? Like that’s just who has that much money, right? It’s not individuals, and the corporations don’t really want to touch it, right. So that’s kind of why it’s no man’s lands now, one to five. Typically, it’s micro PE buyers like myself, right? If you just Google micro PE, micro private equity, you’ll find a list of buyers, it’s a new emerging space, people have figured out ways to make cost-effective ways to make that work effectively, essentially, but it’s micro PE firms, there’s probably 20 of them out there. We all know each other. So this is a small, also a small group of buyers. Because I’d say in this kit, in this space, one to five, one to 5 million, you’re looking at probably 1x to 4x. And so get your multiples down, right. Like, I usually start the conversation with the founder, and they say I want 10x I’m like, okay, what I’m going to save for the next 10 minutes is gonna hurt your feelings, and you’re gonna hate me, but I’m gonna say it anyways. And don’t worry, let’s just stay friends. You don’t have to sell me your company. And I pretty much tell them all the reasons why that is batshit crazy, and that no one will pay and I tell them to go talk to other people. And what always happens six months later, they come back. They did all the homework like, you’re right, Sujan, I try curse your name like 100 times, because you crush my dreams. But let’s go with 4x. Right? Well, like they will sell it for a lower multiple. And that’s just because like at one to five, there is not 10x of value. Now, I’m saying that outside of strategic. Strategic deals happen all the time, but you cannot plan for strategic deals, you cannot run your company for strategic valuation. Unless you’re like, I’m going to sell it to SAP and I know SAP needs this. And I got the right timing and luck, right? Like I met the guy or whatever. And that can happen. But like it’s very low. So I say one to 4x is a one to 5 million. Under 5 million I think like probably you either don’t have a sellable company, or it’s like two to 3x. And the buyer pool opens up quite a bit because people do have a few million dollars to buy around. To invest or buy, right? But like that, like one to 10 million is the hardest range to sell. Because think about this at 3x and a million dollar company, you need a buyer with at least $3 million all the way to nine million and 3x you need a buyer with $27 million. Who has that? Right? All the PE people have it? Well, they’re too small for them, right? And so it’s just a numbers game. And what I’ve learned the hard way from operating these companies is like it’s the same work to run a $1 million company or a $10 million company or $50 million company. So it doesn’t change you’re just ROI changes. AKA go bigger, right?
Jeremy Weisz 40:52
I know we have a little bit of time left. So I want to talk about changing the go-to-market strategy, marketing Lead versus sales lead. And also Sujan, I want to give a big shout out to William Harris, who reintroduced us, who’s the CEO of Elumynt. And they are an e-commerce growth agency focused on profit, not just rollouts. And you can check them out at elumynt.com. How do you know William, by the way?
Sujan Patel 45:01
So William was the previous Head of Marketing at the company, I joined in Minnesota. And so he worked for me for about like, a year or two. And we’ve just kept in touch. Smart dude. Good friends. Yeah, super sharp. Highly recommend is agency if you’re an e-commerce and if you want to invest in paid, I’d say is one of the best not just agencies, but one of the best-paid folks out there. And I love agencies that are like their founders, the aka the marketer person is hands on and Will in Jaffa are that.
Jeremy Weisz 46:00
Nice. So changing the go-to-market Strategy.
Sujan Patel 46:05
Yeah, so at Mailshake we did this fun thing. And by fun, I mean, extremely painful, but super rewarding last year, which would was like, decide to go up-market. And the reasoning behind that was we needed to be sellable. Our customers had, we had to high churn, simply put, we tried a lot of things we didn’t try hard enough. And that was all because of the pricing model, as well as the type of customers we were getting. We were today to all the way to 2022, all of our traffic, I mean, all of our new customers came in from the website, they either talk to a salesperson or sign up by themselves, it was somewhere between $60 and $100 per user to buy, and you just go it’s a credit card fee, whatever. Well, that resulted into like people just trying things, like, we had a lot of activation churn. And so because you only put in $60, and you maybe try it prior to two months, you wouldn’t really like try that hard. No, it’s like, anyways, long story short to go up-market. That was the way that was where the money’s at, that’s where stickier users are at. And that’s kind of where we can get better valuations as an exit. Now, again, I always like look at our companies, it is the sellable, and it’s typically a quarterly question. But anyways, long story short, we wanted to go up-market, marketing is not going to drive that motion, because marketing can’t control who comes through the door, they can only control like the keywords or whatever. And we kept getting, we got, well, we tried marketing in 2020 2022, it resulted into more of the same customer sort of work, but we just got the same customer. And so we’re like we need to go after our higher end competitors, our outreach and SalesLoft and their enterprise. And they keep moving more and more to enterprise. This is a gap that’s been opened up, which is their kind of smaller customers, the mid-market, look, well, we’re not even doing anything for this. And so the go-to-market to get those customers to get in front of those customers was not something marketing can do. Because we couldn’t market to where they were, they were not actually and you’re not like searching for something on Google. We need to get them before they’re searching for on Google. And so we started an outbound sales function. We tried for years to do outbound sales, but it’s never a big lever, because we’re a monthly prices. So we went from monthly to yearly pricing, we jacked up our prices, because we want serious people to buy because the other customers end up churning at two higher rate that we’re it’s worth it for us,. So we went in pricing increase or pricing higher and scaled up our outbound team. And because of that, we ended up, we like we want these customers, we have this right fit of customers and this is what the requirements are, we were able to laser focus and get them, fast forward a year. It’s outbound as we are getting more customers and because of the outbound efforts, inbound teams, getting them and then we found out we’re great places to source the leads, meaning where the sales reps, the customers we want to get hang out to our customers or sales teams. It’s either the sales manager, a sales director, or an SDR that’s like the person who’s going to be the buyer of the software. So we find out where to target them. And so now we’re also re-adding marketing, and focusing on branding and works. So we were focusing originally like, where can we get like rollouts? Or like, where can we get a good CAC, oh, we can do Facebook ads, we could do this app, we could do this, we can invest in a partnership program, but we just kept getting more of the same customer because we were looking at it from a financial perspective, not a who perspective, who the buyer is. And so last year, we had to fire our whole marketing team like stop a functioning marketing effort, right? And build out an outbound sales team to focus on a specific customer re-do our product roadmap to focus on things that this new customer wants. And so one day we literally had to flip a light switch and say stop all this stuff. Kill the roadmap scrap that let’s go do these things instead. So our product team had to go reef learn who the customer is and like stop everything and then it was very painful to fire folks when they were doing their job and they were doing it well and then build out the same time not kill morale and build up the outbound sales team. Now that like almost a year has passed. It is definitely the right move. And like every person who does this, I wish I did this sooner.
Jeremy Weisz 51:32
Sujan, I want to be the first one to thank you. Everyone check out rampventures.com and the company’s there and of course mailshake.com And Sujan, thanks as always, great having you.
Sujan Patel 51:44
Yeah, thank you. I’m excited. That was a fun conversation.
