Jeremy Weisz 17:03
What were some of those things that you remember helped with helping them tax the referrals? You know, when ultimately —
Peter Bolt 17:12
It was a combination of a couple of things? First and foremost is making it easy, you know, people are lazy, and you know, they just don’t want to work too hard. And yes, if you’re giving me a bonus of some sort to refer to a friend, I want the bonus, but I’m not willing to work too hard for it. So the first thing was making it easy to execute, both on the givers end, and on the receivers end, like I gotta make it. So you know, a classic kind of user experience journey to make it really simple. The next thing is, and I mentioned, this is the timing of when you promote to clients, or customers, when Hey, you should, you should check out our refer friend program.
And what we found was there is a period, you know, kind of from 30 to 90 days after they come on board, where they’re far more likely to refer, you know, they’ve experienced it, they’re probably the difference from their previous provider is most ripe in their mind. They’re kind of your biggest evangelists. And by promoting it in that time period, not before they experienced or, you know, a year down the road, when it’s not kind of as Top of Mind with them really helped those. So those two things were the biggest differentiator. I mean, we experimented with different levels of awards for the referring person. And to be honest, that has an impact as well. But I would say those two things were the biggest drivers. Yeah,
Jeremy Weisz 18:41
I mean, some of that would be I think, a little counterintuitive. At least I’ve thought about it before, it’s like, well, they’re just started, we don’t want to bother them. Let’s wait six months. And from the research. It’s like, that’s not going to work. You know, they’re probably most excited. But I could see I’ve even thought this well, we don’t want to bother them. They’re just starting, but that’s when they’re most excited to —
Peter Bolt 19:06
Yeah, you know, you buy a new pair of shoes, you really love them. And if you’re like a basketball player, like I am, or a skier and you buy a new pair of skis and you go on them for a couple of weekends, you’re like, oh, but you gotta try. These are so amazing. That’s when you want to talk about stuff. And that’s, you know, even something as typical and everyday as a cellphone plan. It still applies.
Jeremy Weisz 19:29
We talked about in the very beginning how people market brands. I want to talk about some of the mistakes people make, but you created this video here. You guys have such a creativity about you and will show some of the other ones. How do you come to this where someone’s on a trampoline? And by the way, if someone’s listening to this on one of the audio channels, you can go there is a video version and we’re showing the camp Jefferson site. And you can see here this person is jumping on a trampoline and I’m just wondering, how did you come up with this person with the Velcro suit? jumping onto this board?
Peter Bolt 20:06
Yeah, well, I mean, it started with our kind of, again, ways we’re trying to make people happy and deliver on our promise to choose happiness. One of the strategies was kind of like what you’re saying, pick your perks, you know, put another way, choose what makes you happy. And so we provided customers, the real opportunity to kind of go, hey, you know, not everyone has the same value to the same kind of functionality. I might like a speed boost. Some other people might like unlimited long distance play international plans, other people might like rollover data. So we kind of went well, instead of kind of giving them one option, I think it’ll make people happier if they had their option to choose. So there’s the strategy around, pick your perks and choose what makes you happy.
As far as the specific execution, you know, we’ve worked with our client to define, you know, what our brand personality is and we want to be kind of a fun, useful, you know, brand in the marketplace. We also have Jeremy, we spend considerably less money in media than the other big partners out there. So we have to do something creative that stands out. And to be honest, once we kind of got this idea of like, hey, we have 15 seconds to show people how we can pick your perk. You know what, how can we do that in a fun way? And this idea that the giant claws that go that people were going down as a person? Yeah, that was a great one. You know, people having to pick your brain, we just kind of came up with a funny, hopefully an ignorable way for people to understand what we were trying to communicate.
Jeremy Weisz 21:44
Love it. I’m just always wondering what’s happening around the boardroom, where it goes like, yeah, let’s get someone on a trampoline and put them in a Velcro suit and have them jump.
Peter Bolt 21:55
I know for the fun of being able to work in this business. So random people you have around the boardroom table.
Jeremy Weisz 22:00
Yeah, exactly. And we’ll talk about you know, you do a lot of things as a company, and you put things in my mind. That’s a bit counterintuitive. And I love that because it’s not something I’ll think of and we’ll talk about the Walter Caesar one because this is one of my favorite ones. So I encourage everyone to go, campjefferson.com, and you can go to their slash work. And you can kind of see some of these but you can watch the full video here and what we’ll talk about this because this is, again, I would you think these are the ones that are getting cut, like what we’re going to show here are the clips that I would think 99% of companies would cut from a video. And we will, we’ll see why. But talk about some of the mistakes people make when they’re marketing their brands. What have you seen, you know what error maybe if you have to correct the companies that come to you, and you have to kind of educate them on Yeah, we’re not going to do this, because we’ve seen that done? And is this not going to work?
Peter Bolt 23:03
Yeah, I think there’s a couple things in this Caesar case, we’ll bring some of these to life. One is kind of catering to the category Trump’s you know, and kind of going, oh, you know, this is why people enter the category. So I’m just going to speak to those as well. You know, reasons, there’s a commenting marketing term called Reasons to Believe, you know, it’s a, what’s the proof points you have on why people should believe you and buy. And we kind of fundamentally think reasons to believe are, are a bit misguided, you know, they’ll take you to the standard category reasons, as opposed to reasons to choose and what is going to make them choose you over someone else. So I think a common mistake is kind of playing to the category tropes playing to the things that people go to the category to get, and are almost table stakes.
And if you’re just spending good money on your clients’ money out there promoting table stakes, you’re not creating a lot of differentiation for you and you’re not getting a great return on their thing, their investment. So I think that’s one thing that people do. I think the other thing that comes with that, generally you’re not that differentiated, like the differentiation quite literally drives growth. There was a great study and I can’t remember the name off the top of my head. It came out just a few months ago from work that showed that brands that have true differentiation will grow at 25% higher than brands that have limited to no differentiation. So being unique and being regarded as unique really matters. And certainly playing to the industry defaults is not going to do that.
The other thing I think that people will often mistake is trying to go after everybody. I’m not defining who your audience is or who the potential person you’re trying to attract. And I don’t mean by age, or even other demographics, I mean by like this type of person is going to be interested in us. And when we focus on that, it’s going to give us a lot more creativity, it’s going to get a lot more insight and to be able to do something meaningful. And that the exact Walter Caesar example you have up there is a perfect one on that.
Jeremy Weisz 25:35
So let’s talk about this one for a second year. Again, if you’re listening here, there’s a video here, we’re looking at it. I’m not going to ruin the punch line here. But you know, it is very, in my mind, counterintuitive. So just talk about what’s going on here.
Peter Bolt 25:54
Sure. So basically, what we did here was, they are a new entry to the market, Walter Caesar, they are competing against the giant, who owns literally 90% of the market share in months, they needed to do something unique. And Walter Caesar is a drink, Walter Caesar is a drink. For those in the States. It’s like a Bloody Mary tech drink. It’s up here in Canada, it’s made with clam juice, a really popular drink, but very polarizing people love it, or people hate it. And when I was referred to the audience profile, we were not going to go out there, we had literally, I would say, maybe 1/50 of the budget of moths to take out of this. So we need, we’re not going to go out there and convince people who don’t like Caesars as a drink, to go and drink one, we’re going to try and take share from you know, people who are drinking Caesars and come drink ours.
And that the thing about this product was it was really authentic. It was great. It was a good quality, authentic Caesar. So once we decided on that audience, all of a sudden, it made things really, really much more open up new avenues. And what we did, because we played off the insight, that Caesars are so polarizing, and what we created, what was we referred to as the D testimonial, and that if poor Caesars are so polarizing, and we’re a real authentic Caesars than people who don’t like Caesars will particularly hate us, they will hate us even more than they hate others, because we’re a true real Caesar. And so we convinced the client, and I gave a client a ton of credit, they had a lot of trust that we could pull this off, that we would show people hating their product, did testing their product, swearing after they took a sip of their product, showing terrible faces, to prove just how genuine our Caesar was, and that we were a product that as you can see, was made for Caesar lovers.
So if you love Caesars, you’re really going to love this drink. And again, those principles of not playing off the industry tropes and understanding of your audience really comes to light on being able to do products that really show people hating it, to show just how authentic it truly is. And for a Caesar lover, that’s exactly what they’re looking for. was tremendously successful for their low budget and just immediately shot them to the top. They were number one fastest during that summer.
Jeremy Weisz 28:28
Let’s talk about trust for a second. Anyone who runs an agency, your clients are coming to you for your expertise, but still they have opinions. And how do you get them ? How do you get a client to agree to this? I mean, like, hey, “client, we’re going to show videos of people hating your products and multiple things. They’re going to make bad faces, they’re going to say it’s gross. And you got approval to actually follow through.” So yeah, yeah. How do you get the client to agree?
Peter Bolt 29:07
You know, what is it really based on trust. And like —
Jeremy Weisz 29:11
Peter, we got we hired you to make us look good. And this is what you show us like I can see this going south. Quickly.
Peter Bolt 29:18
Imagine the presentation. Well, I will say the thing that’s maybe a bit misunderstood about our industry, you know, we don’t generally go away and just come back and go, Hey, we got it. You know, it’s like in one fell swoop. So we worked with these guys on this strategy of kind of going, Hey, if before authentic, how can we separate ourselves from this? What is going to make us unique? We want to go after Caesar lovers, we have a right to win with them more than anyone else. You know, and then there was the big loop kind of going okay. A great way to show that we’re authentic is to show Caesar how much Caesar lovers or people don’t like Caesars pay less. And that was Lou and I, they really bought off on this strategy when we showed them the creative.
The biggest question, this is where trust came in was, can we do it so that the net takeaway, even though we’re showing people not liking our product, and D testimonials as we refer to it, can the net takeaway be to our, to our, the people we care about, this is going to be a real authentic good Caesar, you know, and as the line for Caesar lovers, you know, and that took a bit of a leap of faith on their part, but relationships, you know, having previous success, and again, knowing that we are in it, and unfortunately, this isn’t the case for all advertising agencies, because sometimes advertising agencies just want to do crazy work, for the sake of doing crazy work. And I think, you know, the key to building that trust is we’re here to grow your business. And we fundamentally believe and have real good strategic insight to show that this is going to do that.
It’s, it’s a bit risky, for sure, but we’ve mitigated the risk with a lot of the research and understanding we do and and, you know, you, you need something to stand out, because you’re not going to be able to outspend and you’re not going to be able to get out market, so you got to be smarter, and I think those combinations came for this client, but we have many clients who, you know, put that trust in us as their partner, because we know, they know we have their, their interests at heart. In fact, you know, to be very transparent with many of our clients, our theory, fee agreements are actually set up so that when we don’t, we don’t necessarily just get paid for hours, where you get paid on results. And those also help because we’re all vested in the same outcomes.
Jeremy Weisz 31:53
I can see, Peter, how the D testimonial can work in a number of different types of companies, not just this, because I’m thinking, well, they have a weird, you know, a different brand, or maybe it tastes funny or whatever. But this can work. I think, if you focus on the people, you don’t want to attract and highlight those things and create the testimony out of it.
I’m wondering if you’ve, if you’ve used it or seen other examples, I could see this in kombucha company. I mean, I love kombucha, actually. But I could see that working in that not just drink categories, but just highlighting, you know, we don’t want even in a car company, like someone’s talking about all the features, why they hate of it, whereas someone who wants those features, it speaks to them,
Peter Bolt 32:44
I think it’s a really interesting strategy, when there’s a polarization in the product, that for the same reason, people love it, and people hate it, you know, like you might kind of go this bed is very, very soft. And for that exact reason people love it. And for that exact same reason people hate it. And those are the types of scenarios where that idea of like, the testimonials are showing, because it’s that same feature that people hate that causes people to like it. And if your audience is just going over the people that already like soft beds, then you’re probably in a good place.
Jeremy Weisz 33:23
Yes, um, you know, when I was doing research, I was reading you really, also one of the things you focused on was client relations and growth. So we’re a company. What are some of the things that you think about, or are instructive for someone when you are talking to someone from another company say, Hey, here’s how we think about client relations? Yeah,
Peter Bolt 33:48
It’s such a great question to be honest, I think our number one reason for growth, to be very honest, is our relationships with clients. And I think it starts with empathy. In, you know, reading truly understands, what they’re the position, they’re in, what they’re, they’re being measured against. You know, we often push clients, oh, you know, don’t worry, it’s a risk, but it’ll be great. And I think we’re, you know, we have to put ourselves in their shoes in a very empathetic and sympathetic way to understand, you know, these are potentially their jobs at risk, you know, if they make a big investment out there, and it doesn’t work, you know, it’s not just how that campaign didn’t work. It’s like, okay, I’m looking for a new job now.
So, I think really, it starts with that. And, and what follows from that is treating in and having the passion for their business as if it’s our own, and, you know, so that requires a US being, you know, digging in being as knowledgeable on that, but it also just, it has that ability, like, you know, we can We can bring in a fresh voice, we can bring in the voice of the consumer, we can bring in an outside perspective. But at the same time, we need to understand the world that they’re operating in. And if we do that, well, we together can take leaps, because they know we’re not pushing them into unnecessarily prices just for the sake of doing something outlandish or risky, that we’re doing it for the right reasons. And because we truly believe it, so I think that’s it. I think the other piece that really builds that relationship is collaboration and transparency. You know, unfortunately, in our industry, there is, you know, kind of an adage, where we, you get the brief from the client, and you go away from three weeks, and you come back and you go, tada, here it is, we’ve cracked it, and it’s right. And you We really hope you go ahead with this.
I don’t think that’s the best way to build relationships, I think, working together, sharing early, often exploring areas together. Those are the things that you know, help us to understand how they think. And that helps them understand why we think and then together, we are better for it. But it takes you mentioned trust earlier, Jeremy. And it really takes it both and leads to trust when you get it right.
Jeremy Weisz 36:20
Yeah, I love that empathy, collaboration, transparency, and it kind of goes back to the foundation, the foundation is you have to have staff that have empathy. Right? So talk about the hiring process.
Peter Bolt 36:34
Yeah, you’re right. In our industry, our people are our product, our ideas that come from the people are what we sell, you know, so bringing in the right type of people is absolutely crucial. And we have a pretty there’s a, there’s a few kind of principles or tenants about camp Jefferson that we are fairly adamant about doing. And again, you mentioned one, being able to have empathy, kind of on the flip side of that is, you know, no egos, egos tend to get in the way of empathy, really quickly. So in our business, there’s no, no lack of egos. And we really pride ourselves on finding people who don’t have, I think, again, a collaborative spirit. We have different groups within the agency, as any kind of company does, we have strategy folks, and creative folks and production folks, project management folks. But the realization that, you know, any one, and everyone is contributing to making the idea great, is really important.
Having each other’s back that it’s not my role, and over to you, and then you know, kind of passing up the baton, those are some of the tenants that really, really drive us. And, you know, and we’re in a social fun business, you know, I think, you know, having people who we definitely don’t look for a single prototype, but having people who can get along and, and work together bring diverse and unique perspectives and feel very comfortable doing so that’s really the key to our success here. And then we have to fuel that with a culture that accepts that and that allows people the freedom, the flexibility to be themselves, both in their lifestyle, but in how they work.
And, you know, in interestingly, you know, we have a, our approach to training and even rewards is to think about kind of a whole person, and not just the person you are at work, because, you know, we do take up a lot of your time, but if we think about you more holistically, and how we can help, like in our training programs, to not just, you know, give you the obvious training, but what kind of helps you expand and where you’re going, it can be really a win win for both of us, for the person, and then ultimately better, you know, I’ll maybe give you a quick example that Jeremy, we did a training program where we took the entire agency for a day and we brought in this former FBI director who who is leading a practitioner in cold cases, and the day we spent trying to crack actually a real existing cold case. He gave us all the material, all the research, and all the investigation that’s been done.
And if you know, it may seem quite 10 Gentle to an agency and to some degree it was but it was a great day. But what it really was interesting is it actually ended up having a lot of great impacts because trying to dig through, you know, a puzzle fit the pieces together. What could have been happening, what were the month it was and it was a fantastic day, but it was probably one of our most, you know, well revered in the feedback we got as far as a training day goes, but it was kind of on a unique perspective. And I think that approach to the kind of thinking about people as people, not just employees, has really helped us, not only in finding the right type of people, but in helping them grow up.
Jeremy Weisz 40:10
I love that. What about the reward side?
Peter Bolt 40:14
Yeah.
Jeremy Weisz 40:15
What are some things that you think about that are maybe unique rewards? Because it sounds like it’s very kind of individualized?
Peter Bolt 40:23
Yeah, well, there’s a couple of things. I mean, you know, not everyone is driven by a bigger paycheck or more money. Most people appreciate that, let’s be very honest. But also our resources are not infinite when it comes to just giving out raises and such. So I think understanding what, again, what drives people and what motivates people, you know, sometimes it’s more, more days off, sometimes it is the ability to do unique training programs that maybe they would never get a chance to do. I mean, another example is how we’ve structured our workweek. So we’re a very collaborative business. So we do get together for a couple days a week in the office Wednesdays and Thursdays, but we quite purposely, you know, schedule our other days to allow people greater freedoms.
And in fact, we have this program, it’s called full flex Fridays, where we try and eliminate the use of emails, meetings, and get togethers on Fridays, so that people can use that day for what they feel is the best purpose, sometimes that’s catching up on work. Sometimes it’s just sitting down and having dedicated, underrated uninterrupted work time, which people tremendously value. And sometimes, it’s, you know, hey, I’m in good place, I’m going to start my weekend a little early, you know, but having that ability to allow people, you know, the freedom to kind of determine their schedule, you know, and it starts with, you know, having real confidence in people. And if you hire people you trust and feel are good people, you can give them that latitude, because, you know, that’s going to return, you know, and then some,
Jeremy Weisz 42:03
What’s something that’s baked in the hiring process that you find valuable? Like, I know, I was talking to someone the other day, they use I mean, companies use different tools. They specifically use predictive indexes like I know others have used cultural index, others use Colby and others use different tests. But aside from that, what is something that’s kind of baked into the hiring process to help you actually, because I’m sure a lot of people when they put out something a lot of people apply, and you have to weed out people? So what’s something that you do?
Peter Bolt 42:38
I, you know, this is I wish it was cooler? Well, probably our biggest key to success is having them meet more people across the agency. And not just within their kind of discipline. So a on the project manager will don’t just meet your project manager, boss, meet some creative people meet some strategists start to get a feel, you know, and what’s interesting, Jeremy is not only do we get a good sense of that person, and what they’re going to be like, and but they get a better sense of us. And I think that what is sometimes forgotten when you’re looking at people is that it’s as much about the fit that person fitting in your culture and bringing value and diversity into your culture, as it is about, you know, the other way around.
And I think, exposing them to who we are, how we think and how we were, and letting them make a good judgment on is this the right kind of place for me, you know, we are, we’re not the biggest agency in Canada. In fact, we’re kind of a mid-sized agency, there are a lot bigger places with bigger head counts and stuff that they can go to. But there’s something about us that is really appealing to a lot of people. And if it works for you, that is probably going to work for us. So it’s kind of a more of a two way street on that. So not that rocket science or any cool tool. But really that exposure we find really helps.
Jeremy Weisz 44:06
I was reading your Peter with about employee engagement and your company that, you know, I’m not sure what’s out today, but the time when I was reading it employee engagement at over 86% Talk about what that means? And what are the things that you do as a company to foster employee engagement?
Peter Bolt 44:27
Yeah, you know, it is thankfully I think we’re at 88% this year, so we went up a couple of it from your research, but yeah, it’s, you know, again, it comes back to that principle I mentioned before about thinking in the person as a whole person. So what can we do to make your work life more enjoyable, more motivating, allow you greater growth, but also what are you wanting to person you’re out of work and how can we, you know, make sure that what we’re asking of you and what you’re bringing fits in with that I think there’s the other thing and, you know, this, this stems from our I think our leadership team right down is, is a feeling of team. And I’ll give you an example.
We did a couple examples. We have one in our history, that one, one really, really challenging client, we brought them on new business working great, said all the right things, a few months in the relationships, that got pretty difficult. And at one point, the relationship got to a point where it’s really tough, and a couple of people are getting quite upset from these interactions, you know, and we stood up for as a management team, we decided, in my first time, in my 20 year career, we actually fired a client, we said, You know what, this isn’t working for us. And although we, you know, we appreciate the revenue and all that stuff, it’s not working and standing up for our clients, for our employees in that matter, it really shows that we have their back. And a similar situation, when COVID hit, one of our clients’ budgets, you know, came back and in many agencies had to lay off many people. Our management team took a pay cut for quite a bit of time, so that we didn’t have to lay off a single person.
And we did that because not only do we just think it’s just not the right thing to do at this point in time to lay off people who are going to have no hope of finding a job. But we also did it kind of going, this too will pass and we want to be in a strong position to come out of this. And I can tell you, our growth coming out of the pandemic was, was really phenomenal 20 Plus growth coming out of the pandemic. And 76% of that was with our original clients organic growth. And we would have never been able to achieve that. Had we, you know, had to retool the team and reorder the team. So while it kind of sounds like a very, you know, very generous approach to make it also it was good for our people. But it was also good for us and the two need not be independent.
Jeremy Weisz 47:07
Yeah, I want to have one last question for you, Peter. Before I ask, I just want to point people to check out and learn more. You can go to campjefferson.com. They’ve worked with some amazing companies, they have some great examples of just their thought process. I know you have some on the Center for Addiction and Mental Health, that km h, there’s some videos and information on that. And we already point out a few other ones on their webpage.
So I just encourage everyone to check those out. And the Walter Caesar one’s hilarious. So you should definitely watch that one. My last question is just about mentors, in the industry, your mentors, people you’ve learned from throughout the years, some of the lessons you learned from them and in your business?
Peter Bolt 47:55
You know, it’s a great question. And you know, we’re such people who are into business that I think mentorship is really important. You know, and as a bit of a side note, like it was, it’s interesting, when we were all working from home due to the pandemic, and COVID I think that’s the one piece, you know, that really comes probably suffered the most, we were able to give guidance and direction. That’s no problem. But the true mentorship takes connectivity and takes being there. And it’s a really important one.
I know for me, and it’s funny, I was just sharing this, this perspective of some advice, you know, a mentor of mine gave me and it would literally be 12 years ago or more, you know, and it stuck with me. And it was about knowing how to present yourself. I’m a fairly opinionated person, and usually kind of quick to make decisions. And you know, the advice was, you know, listen and contemplate before you come in and, and those sorts of advice, those pieces of advice can stick with you. And I think the beauty of it, you know, this is a personal bias. But the beauty of a mid-sized place is you have far more interactions, you have far more ability to get exposed to people who have been through something or have seen something, not just your direct boss or manager. And I think that allows for kind of the softer side of mentoring.
And it’s a huge piece of it. We set up very deliberate programs to cross pollinate mentors, but I actually think the soft side of mentorship, of being with people seeing them in action, that that little comment at the end of a presentation of hey, this was really great. Or, you know, if you’ve done a little more of that, I think those are the little pieces that tend to stick with people that are longer and make an impact.
Jeremy Weisz 49:54
You know, I want to be the first one. Thank you everyone. Check out more episodes of the podcast check out camp Jefferson. dot com and we’ll see you next time Peter thanks so much. Thanks
Peter Bolt 50:04
Thanks for having me.
