Peep Laja

Well, I mean, if you start with this website has been live for a couple of months when you start, we start with your best hypotheses. You don’t know what’s going to work. So we decided to go with more text because most people don’t watch the videos

Jeremy Weisz

I see.

Peep Laja

But those who do are typically the more interested people so more leads come comes in.

Jeremy Weisz

So what other data driven decisions you made with conversion XL that been produced produce great results for you.

Peep Laja

So for instance, my homepage conversion Excel Which looks like crap. By the you know, it’s getting a new design next month. But the homepage, it used to also have blog posts. It used to have navigation. But I removed all of them because having none of that stuff works better. So now I just have an offer opt in. Well add a link at the bottom if you want to just go to the blog, but Mm hmm. So yeah, getting rid of noise and just focusing in on a single offer kicks ass.

Jeremy Weisz

Mm hmm. Yeah, it does. So I always like to include the fun fact that most people don’t know because you do a lot of blogging video interviews. And back in high school used to sing in a metal rap band.

Peep Laja

Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, I was not the main singer. I was like the the number two singer.

Jeremy Weisz

You look the part tonight. Yeah. Yeah. And so I also want to find out a little bit about you your background. Where’d you grew up? What was it Influenced for you growing up?

Peep Laja

Yeah, growing up, I grew up in Estonia, my home country. And then I started to travel the world during the college years. So I lived in Dubai, where I met a girl and moved to Panama with her and then we live in Thailand. And now normally in Austin, Texas. I did not become an entrepreneur by choice, it was kind of an accident. So I did not have any entrepreneurial role models growing up. I always thought I’ll just have a job until I moved to Panama, and my employer was a startup and their main investor pulled out all the money and then I was in Panama and I was like, holy crap what I’m gonna do now am I gonna go home and try to make it and then had to had to somehow make it and I started a local SEO PPC agency there and so

Jeremy Weisz

good for Though,

Peep Laja

oh, I just went there to have fun and to learn Spanish. I was dating this girl who I’m married to now. So it was just it was just fun, you know, mainly. And I worked for I initially for an British internet television company. The investor was the wife of sorry, the husband of Anita Roddick, the founder of body shop, and she died of cancer. So the husband got depressed, pull out the investments. And then there was there was in Panama. And then since I had been doing PPC SEO in Dubai, where previously lived, I went to local, say, tourism and real estate companies and say, Hey, hire me. And they all said, we do need what you offer, but not full time. And then I just registered the domain name, Panamainternetmarketing.com put up a website and said, Hey, I’m a company even though not legally. But I said, hey, yeah, and so I landed my first clients, those same people that interviewed

Jeremy Weisz

Was it a hard sell to get your first clients? Or do you just not so easy? I mean,

Peep Laja

back in the day, that was 2007. It was so easy like I, I kind of sent cold emails to companies that I thought would be, you know, interested in SEO, like Air Panama, the national airline, then the CEO himself replied to my email, my cold email saying that we have been waiting for somebody can you come in, you know, so landed them as a client, and they’re still using parts of the website that are built for them, here and now. So

Jeremy Weisz

there must have been a damn good cold email. What do you say?

Peep Laja

I don’t remember. But I think it was. It’s probably not not totally bad. But I think it wasn’t really good. It was just that nobody else was offering SEO in Panama back in 2007.

Jeremy Weisz

what was next after SEO.

Peep Laja

So once I get done with Panama and And then I started to just hop around in places, just US, Europe, Central America just backpacking and and you know, if you have a really, if you have a lifestyle where you move around a lot, you need to have a digital product. So I got into info products, selling ebooks, courses, stuff like that. And that’s where I got more into the conversion stuff as well. And, you know, of course, already with SEO, you know, even if I managed to get my clients to number one in Google, which again in 2007, wasn’t very hard. I saw that they weren’t necessarily making more money. You know, there’s more to this internet marketing thing than just SEO, I realized. And with my, with my info products, I’m starting to run my first tests using the now extinct Google Website Optimizer and and I write a blog in Estonia language. It was, at a time, the most popular marketing blog in the country. But Estonia is a very small country. So, you know, once they moved to the United States, I think in 2010, legally, then, you know, I was like, Well, how do I conquer this market here? And decided to like, Hey, I’m kind of into this conversion stuff. So why don’t I start a blog? Actually, I had a failed startup as well forgot about that. So

Jeremy Weisz

I can let you forget about it. I know Traindom. What truly am I wanted to hear what happened to Traindom?

Peep Laja

Yeah. So we built this kick ass software, because you know, I was selling courses and ebooks, and my clients were asking me, hey, I want to sell an online course to how and I said, Well, let me google it for you. And found nothing. No tool out there was in 2009 that you could use to build online courses. So, got together a team, we built a tool, it was kick ass. And then hard marketing lessons, you might have the best tool in the world. But if you have no money, no name recognition, no relationships, nothing, then how do you get the word out that hey, you have this cool product. So we try for two years, all kinds of things from, from blogging to building relationships to with influencers to spamming, and nothing worked fast enough for us. So we had to fold our cards and actually, even now, you know, I released a conversion course earlier this year. And I wanted to use Traindom because nothing else out there was as good they all suck. Like, actually there could have been, you know, a future for it just didn’t have a market. So once Traindom failed. And I was thinking like, what what do you do now? And I thought about getting into the conversion game. I told myself I’m not going to make the same mistake. I’m going to build an audience first. Okay, so that’s when Conversion XL the blog happened.

Jeremy Weisz

I’m going to talk about Conversion XL, but why do you think Traindom didn’t work because you obviously had a need. Why do you think it didn’t work? And now you can go back to it.

Peep Laja

I don’t know, to be honest, I have just some theories because we, you know, technical implementation wise if people wanted it to run on their own domain name, you know, it was kind of difficult to go to your domain name registery and add a C name you know, value their heart also most people had their existing sites where required them to sign up for a new like a sub domain x xx does.

Jeremy Weisz

Udemy Right. I mean, Udemy does that

Peep Laja

the difference between Udemy was the Udemy also provided a marketplace where you could shop for the courses and we only sold two course creators. And, and that’s a good point that that we probably should have done a marketplace small as well, because the people who did sign up with us had a really hard time selling their courses. Mm hmm. Because they were not often marketers themselves, they were like, how to grow plants or you know, whatever. So we had, of course, clients who were making a good amount of money and we’re very happy. So yeah, we should have done a marketplace model like Udemy because you’re gonna be pretty much started at the same time, as did Kajabi. And what Kajabi did differently they hired they partnered with a guy with a huge three huge network.

Jeremy Weisz

I wanted to find out about Traindom which I think is interesting is how do you decide when to quit like a year two years three because a lot of people Or add something for seven years, and then it’s successful. So how do you? How do you deal with that?

Peep Laja

Well, we we didn’t we try, we ran out of ideas to try. And there was no money wasn’t making money, we had to do stuff on the side to keep the lights on. And two years in, we were kind of demoralized and the developers that was working with they were design was responsible for the marketing part. They were kind of like, pissed, pissed at me is like, you know, we built the software. So now you do your part. You know, so interpersonal relationships. And what it was, it was really hard to take the decision because it was like my baby and really hard. Yeah,

Jeremy Weisz

that’s why I asked

Peep Laja

and that was poor is, you know, you don’t have any money. And so one, finally, we took the decision to let it go. It was like, ah, I should have done it a year ago. So it was the right thing to do. Huh, stop beating the dead horse because we didn’t really see any upward trend. It was like, flat. Mm hmm. And I was like taking the growth. Like every every month people were signing up but not at an acceptable rate. Mm hmm.

Jeremy Weisz

was next conversion XL. Yeah. So how do you the other thing is the mental aspect of this didn’t work. Some people would go get a job. Yeah, you know what means you I’m going to try this again, you know,

Peep Laja

you know, so throughout ish time when I was doing train them and and before I was making money as a consultant, like a digital marketing consultant, how to do your SEO and PPC stuff and so on. So I had a small consulting gig going. So venturing into you know, offering a conversion Service was was not something really new or or sudden it was like just everything was leading motion. So node getting a job was not an option because I lead a multi country life. I spent all my summers in Estonia the rest of time in Austin, Texas and then, you know, travel like last 2012 I lived in Thailand. So, so you know who’s gonna hire you? So you can travel around the world? No, but so that ship has sailed. Yeah, you got

Jeremy Weisz

a taste of, of one of vacation wandering around and white Ryan Ryan died

Peep Laja

and he No, no, then I, you know, have a higher profile than I used to. I get, you know, quite a lot of job offers. But what I always tell them I say, well, you should hire my agency for 12 months. It’s much cheaper. Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Weisz

Yeah. So what was next how’d you grow Conversion XL.

Peep Laja

So Conversion XL, so Since I was gung ho committed to growing an audience first before I offer a product, I did heavy research about how to build an audience fast. What kind of content spreads what kind of content people like to read here. And also, since I picked conversion optimization, because a I was interested in and B, now defunct Google AdWords tool, show me that there’s not that much competition, as you know. And the Google Trends show me an upward trend, which is still there. And when I googled anything conversion related, this was really the content. Yeah, very few players in the market. So I saw this room. So and I thought of everything that somebody might want to know about conversion optimization, and I of course, Google while already exists, and I saw there’s a whole lot of crap out there. And the data told me that posts that do well in social media are Long posts and also for backlinks long there abouts lots of examples images well formatted bullet points subheadings the

Jeremy Weisz

whole you will have fantastic post on this what is the so people can check it out what’s it called? It’s Conversion XL and it just basically breaks down or maybe it’s on Noah’s

Peep Laja

Yeah, I wrote it for Noah Kagan is, OKDork. Yeah. Google, OKDork Conversion XL. Yeah,

Jeremy Weisz

yeah. People should check that out for sure. What was early on a big impact you talk about I was one of your posts about microcopy. What are the small things that make huge impact? What were those small things that made huge impact so far for Conversion XL?

Peep Laja

You know, I can’t really attribute anything to microcopy because, you know, in the beginning, I was just working on getting the quantum machine going. Mm hmm. Because it’s just hard work is No small change. I mean 12 to 16 hours writing a blog post. And then I wrote this blog post for a specific audience. And so so. So tweaking this small little things like microcopy is a useful tool, once you have a significant amount of traffic, because if you have, don’t have much traffic shouldn’t tinker with the small stuff, you know?

Jeremy Weisz

So what’s your process for research? Because obviously, you do tons of research for your clients. And then on these blog posts, there could be 3000 words,

Peep Laja

right? So a new client comes in say, help me boost my conversions. It will be easy to say yeah, of course I know what to do to improve your conversions. But the truth is that I don’t, nobody knows. Because if me or actually there’s some people out there claim to know what you know, one has to do to improve conversions. They’re all full of shit, because it if they knew they and all their clients would be all billionaires You know, nobody knows, of course, some low hanging fruits you can pick here and there. But generally speaking, you are not the target audience. You know, just yesterday I was consulting somebody that created sales chances systems for hunting rifles. Like, I’ve never even held the gun in my hand. I don’t know anything about the target audience or the product. Yeah. But it’s not about that it’s about a process to find out where the holes are. So that’s what we’re trying to do the research process, essentially. I mean, there is no one true process out there, right? Because you could do, you could on one hand, measure 5000 metrics across 500 segments and have your in house user research lab costs a billion dollars a year or you can do nothing, so everything in between. So you choose how much research you want to do, and how much it’s going to cost. So the method that I use, we’ve branded it as Conversion XL, sorry, Research XL. And we have a, we gather six points of input, six points of data to make our decisions. We always start with a heuristic analysis, heuristic analysis, essentially, an experience based assessment of a website. So we walk through the site, page by page, like homepage, cart, product category, or whatever you have. And we assess each page for a clarity, distraction, anxiety, you know, stuff like that. So very specific analysis. And that results in war. For some people. There’s also just as the truth, but we call it areas of interest. If we see something wrong with a page, we don’t know that that isn’t actually a problem. So now based on what we’ve We want to seek validation to these ideas. And we look at qualitative as well as quantitative data. So quantitative is essential web analytics, Google Analytics, heat maps, you know quantifiable data. So in Google Analytics, we want to understand where is the money leaking out? When people come to the site? Where are they dropping out which specific pages are causing people to drop out. And the quality part is talking to people is customer service serving website traffic interviews with buyers, interviews with customer support sales staff, that tells us helps us to understand the customer helps us understand the why behind. So for instance, there was a client that sells pool parts online. And analytics data tells us that the product pages are crap. The visit to the product page to add to cart ratio is really poor. Why analytics And tell us that. But qualitative surveys told us that the main source of friction was for people. I’m not sure if this is the right part for my pool. I see. I see. Right. Now we understand what’s the problem. Now we can tackle it. So you always should be qualitative quantitative together.

Jeremy Weisz

Yeah. So that you saw that was confusing for someone you knew that that immediately going to be an issue.

Peep Laja

Yeah, exactly. Right.

Jeremy Weisz

So what were some successful website conversions if you look at some of the past clients, sites, what did you discover that worked really well?

Peep Laja

Um, so it depends. It depends a lot on the type of business you know, if you sell software, if you sell software, SaaS, whatever, huh? screenshots. Lots and lots of screenshots show the broader. The same goes for of course with physical products. If you sell pants or shoes, or hats, the number thing one thing People care about is what it looks like not the size or the fabric or whatever. Do I like to design off the hat? If yes, now I care about the fabric and it’s fair trade or whatnot right? Right. So pictures pictures really, really helps. Another thing that really helps is just focus. So on product page ecommerce product pages you know, everything that is there is it helping me to make the decision to add the product to the cart or not? If it’s not motivation might be friction. So removing stuff removing sidebars, removing whatever upsell offers, email can help. So focus bigger pictures, good, solid things that always want to try

Jeremy Weisz

what one sticks out to you out of the ones on your page you have on the Markitekt page. You have Advantage Consulting, Bikini Body Works, Belkin Trail, Shipwire which one sticks out to you that you just had that aha moment that this needs to be changed or they add or subtract this one sticks out?

Peep Laja

So let’s see.

Jeremy Weisz

So boring, obviously beautiful design, like when you look at it, but I’m wondering, it didn’t look like that before you got started with it, you know? Yeah, I mean,

Peep Laja

there are so many cases. So for instance, one of our customers Nationallergy. Yeah. E-commerce site. Yeah. So for them, the data was telling us that they sell allergy relief products. And our customer service showed us that when people are looking at a product whether to buy it or not. Their question in their mind is, is this product can I help my specific allergy Help me with this, you know, get relief from this whatever LG.

Jeremy Weisz

Yeah, I think he was looking for something specific. Yeah,

Peep Laja

Yeah, exactly. Like I have asked my or, you know, I’m sensitive to mold or whatever. So based on that data, we will launch this thing in their menu called find relief from and then list of all this things that they might want to find relief from.

Jeremy Weisz

Right. That make sense.

Peep Laja

Yeah. So that that was a that was a thing that came from the data. And then in Google Analytics, we measured people who use this feature. So let’s choose, let’s say dust mites or whatever. And then in Google Analytics, we set up as the one segment, or people who use this feature, find relief from and we compare the conversion rate against people who are not using that feature, and the difference was like four times Wow. So it’s like something like three versus 12%. It’s like wow, So that is an insight, of course, cause and correlation, we don’t know, really. But we, our hypothesis was that it is the use of this feature. So now the question is, how can we get more people to use that feature? And with the assumption that if they use it, they’ll buy it more. So what we did for first way we made it orange, the thing on the menu, we made it orange, so it would stand out. Actually, results went down. Wow. Because it turned out and when we looked at the data, it did not get more people to use the feature at all. And even and for those people who did not use the feature, the conversion has been down. So that orange thing was a distraction. People looked at it. So they stopped looking at other stuff. Right, so so drawing attention to it through color was the wrong way to go. But we were still confident in our hypothesis was like, well, well, how else can we get more people to use this feature? So we’re in an A B test, actually multiple. Were on the homepage of the site. We got rid of all the products and had a massive big list of

Jeremy Weisz

if people want to see just to mention, if you want to see what we’re talking about, they can go to Markitekt, scroll down and there’s a box where you can that says our conversion optimized design portfolio you can kind of click through and look Yeah, look at these, but go on.

Peep Laja

So yeah, that design portfolio is only for redesigns, but actually most of our business is not doing redesigns but taking an existing site and improving it item by item like through testing.

Jeremy Weisz

Yeah.

Peep Laja

So that’s how you go you implement, you measure, you look at the data, you see if that data offers an insight because data doesn’t tell you anything, right? Yeah, data is like, I mean, and you know, when it comes to data is also like, what is the data that you look at? Because if we’re crossing the road, you know, we could look at the the shapes of the leaves and the trees or the eye color of the people around us. That’s data. The only data that matters is that is there a car coming or not? If we want to cross the road alive, right. Alright. So the same thing with your web analytics data is like you have data about a whole bunch of stuff. You need to look at the right data, and then the interpretation that that’s a skill that you need to tell develop.

Jeremy Weisz

So what did you do for that site to draw attention to it without the color?

Peep Laja

So we just need on the home page center a prominent and that’s still going on at work. There’s always

Jeremy Weisz

a test they’ll go in and things I’m sure for you. There’s always a test going yeah, it seems like qualitative is huge. You figured a lot of big breakthroughs with qualitative What’s another big one you discovered from just talking to the employees or website owner or customers

Peep Laja

or for, for for for a company that is known for document management and paper shredding. So I was talking to their salespeople and ask, and this is my goal here is to find out some data to make their landing pages better. And the salespeople Tell me, I asked the salespeople, what is the number one question people ask when they call in you know, they get to a landing page, they pick up the phone and they tell me where do you keep the stuff and the landing page had no mention of where is the if you hold my like the documents, the papers, you know? first story that your facility where is the first will

Jeremy Weisz

ever think to leave? And

Peep Laja

never you would never think that that’s a question that that matters. But suppose the the underlying intention there was that people wanted to know that if I need to access those papers, how fast can I get to them? You know? So like you can you can find Awesome, awesome insights everywhere, you know.

Jeremy Weisz

So I love that. So Peep, what are some conversion changes that didn’t work? Like you were saying, you put that orange button was one that your hypothesis said this is definitely gonna work and it just bombed.

Peep Laja

So another client and diamondcandles.com they sell saying,

Jeremy Weisz

I’ve taught it it’s Justin, right? Yeah, yeah. I’ve talked to Justin before. Yeah.

Peep Laja

Perfect. Well, he’s my client. I’m a service provider. So he’s selling sent scented candles with a ring in it

Jeremy Weisz

to great idea. A lot of

Peep Laja

it’s a code for a ring. It’s not an actual ring anymore. So it’s a scented candle, and you can’t smell it online. And only place you can buy it is online. So how do you increase the motivation to buy the product? And I thought, well, copy, why don’t we write a better copy for the products like you come into the room and the fresh and the freshly grated oranges fills the role and, you know, you flow through the you know, whatever, right? Just, instead of just saying, orange smelling candle, you know, just make it make it better. And that bombed. Yeah, so I was, I was, did not see that. And I was so convinced. I mean, I see it, of course. Every week, I have a bunch of tests, where I’m like, What the hell is going on here? You know? So I’ve, you know, I’ve been doing this for years. Yeah, run thousands and thousands of tests. And my guess are as to what’s gonna when he gets it right maybe 60% of time maybe 70% just slightly flipping a coin and not good enough. And so I laugh whenever I see people especially if you go to conferences, and when they do this live website tear downs or critiques and they just claim that do this this works of course with page whites as we’re, you know, paid to do as well not paid but it’s fun.

Jeremy Weisz

Yeah. Yeah, you have to test it. So what else would you do that? The orange the copy didn’t work? What Oh x?

Peep Laja

Yes. So what did work

Jeremy Weisz

was bigger pictures.

Peep Laja

So bigger pictures really, really increase the revenue or around 7% or so which was Great win so right now if you go to diamondcandles.com all product images are massive. Yeah,

Jeremy Weisz

yeah. So what else that you predicted? That didn’t that you were convinced did not work? Mm hmm.

Peep Laja

Okay, so

Jeremy Weisz

I can do this over the next few hours with you see

Peep Laja

a test in National Allergy where you go to the cart page, you know, basically if you add a product to the cart, you end up on a cart page, an e commerce site and it has a whole bunch of logos in there like you know, payments secured by this and this and were recommended by this and money back guarantee a whole bunch of anxiety relief messages. Yes, yes. And there are so many of them that I think it’s like an overkill our I thought it’s an overkill. I guess they’re like so much They all demand attention, though yet the only thing we want them to click is Proceed to Checkout right. So we ran a test where we so ABCD test or so like multiple variations, we were just remove different elements that I thought are just not needed. But now they’re all needed.

Jeremy Weisz

I love those ones that you are convinced. Yeah, it just doesn’t work. What’s another one?

Peep Laja

Okay, all right. All right. All right. Also, for ConversionXL in, in the beginning of October, I ran this campaign called Conversion October where it was like a month long, free email course about conversion optimization. And I had a landing page for it and I created three variations for it. And one of the variations had lots of like, why went above and beyond with proof? Like, all kinds of review reviews and testimonials and like my bio and what I’ve done and accomplished and so on. And nothing now did not move. And I thought that it’s, you know, adding more credibility to my offer.

Jeremy Weisz

It also makes sense. Yeah. The body I

Peep Laja

didn’t. And in hindsight, since I mainly promoted this campaign through my own channels like social media, and then email list, and of course, I had a bunch of referral traffic as well, but mainly my own sources, so they already knew me. Well, that’s my own my explanation. You never know why ultimately? Mm hmm. So yeah, I thought my main conclusion was the motivation was already high. Then the friction was already many more. So the landing page converted at around 65%. And I had some other variations in there as well. But

Jeremy Weisz

what was the variation that did work? They were

Peep Laja

actually they, they they all equal. Oh, they’re equal. There was no difference. Oh, wow. Just like boy, I could just say fuck you download the book. I like we’re at a unbounce conference in Vancouver in September, there was a panel discussion. And there was a guy forgot his name, Braden, I think, and he said something funny, where when he’s testing stuff and nothing makes a difference. Like, you know, ABC, the they all converge at the same level. Like, am I doing something wrong? I just and so he on purpose makes a shitty page so the conversions would go down. So To be sure that something is actually happening right right. So might not be a bad idea so all this I mean it’s kind of a wasted traffic so I yeah, that’s not my official recommendation. Yeah, yeah, it’s funny.

Jeremy Weisz

What about Peep that you reluctantly did something you see thought you saw something in the data and you reluctantly didn’t didn’t think it would really work. And it really killed it.

Peep Laja

It’s a good question.

Jeremy Weisz

Because I’m sure there’s the other side of the coin where Yeah, this is gonna work and it does it and yeah, this is probably not gonna work, but I’ll do it anyways.

Peep Laja

There have been many cases.

Jeremy Weisz

Uh huh.

Peep Laja

You know, I’m gonna have to owe you the answer for that. Okay.

Jeremy Weisz

All right. There are so many cases you can’t even think of one.

Peep Laja

What am I the latest I open up my optimizing right now. And They’re like 30, 40 tests running.

Jeremy Weisz

Yeah. So what are some of the tests on there that are interesting?

Peep Laja

That I interesting, so, okay, Mmm hmm. So for instance, for this nationality site, Allah data tells me that about a third of the traffic is landing directly on category pages. Hmm. So they don’t so they just see you know, the products on the category page. They don’t know anything about the site or most of them don’t right. So the idea was that hey, well, why don’t we communicate three key reasons to trust this site there or the buy from this site? On the category pages so on top of the products, we added their doctor recommended products which they’re kind of like their man. Value Proposition 60 day money back guarantee to calm fears and doubts 1.2 million happy customers since 1988. That’s social proof. And so far this test is like killing it with a 10% uplift in conversions and revenue

Jeremy Weisz

both with huge top I know you, you have a bunch of stuff you need to get done. So I’ll just wrap it up for you because we’re right at the top of the hour, even though I have 15 or 17 more questions for you. I’m gonna keep it to one. What do you think would be the most important to leave people with I mean, I wanted to see some of the best advice you’ve gotten from influential mentors. what some of the best advice that you would have for for people that we should leave them with.

Peep Laja

Don’t trust anybody, do your own research, and test stuff. And of course I understand if you don’t have enough traffic. It’s complicated. I have an article about it. What to do, but Follow follow data, not opinions, you know,

Jeremy Weisz

what are some tools you use? you recommend people using the test stuff

Peep Laja

to test stuff. Ah, I prefer Optimizely. Myself, I think it’s, it’s great. Of course you need to know some jQuery CSS without that. Leave it to the developer to set up. Google Analytics has one built in. But that’s only a split URL testing tool. That’s free. Actually. Optimizely is free if you have less than 50,000 visitors a month. So that also works. I I love Optimizely I use it almost exclusively.

Jeremy Weisz

What about questions for the qualitative? Do you have a set of questions you go through? Yeah. Cause I think it’d be super valuable.

Peep Laja

Actually. You know, it’s, I have I’ve written a blog post on it called the how to identify your online audience where I go into those questions, but didn’t really ask stuff like, what’s the one thing that almost Major stop buying, what are some of the doubts and hesitations you had before buying? And this is a survey that goes out to people who just purchased something for the first time. Mm hmm. And I use usually type form for service because it’s the most beautiful one, or Google Docs because it’s free. Mm hmm. So with the, with the service, they want to figure out the friction, you know, that they experience in their mind, as well as their shopping process, like how did you choose to buy this item? Like, oh, I looked at the color and the fabric and so on. That kind of stuff. Mm hmm. So where

Jeremy Weisz

should people go? Where should we send them? Where should the checkout

Peep Laja

conversionxl.com.

Jeremy Weisz

Okay, last question Peep. As an entrepreneur, I want to hear what’s been the lowest moment and what’s been the proudest moment. Um,

Peep Laja

the lowest moment was when I realized that I I have to kill Traindom. I was demoralized, I was out of money. The realization that what I’ve been working on for the last two years has been like a waste of time. And it wasn’t because I learned a lot but it felt that like that moment. So that was like the lowest point. How do you get out of that rut? You need new wins. I think so. And with ConversionXL, I started winning pretty much right off the bat. Huge.

Jeremy Weisz

So the proudest

Peep Laja

proudest moment Yeah. I think once we once we reached 100,000 monthly readers with ConversionXL or so I was like,

Jeremy Weisz

Hey, man, solid.

Peep Laja

That’s solid. I was very happy about that. Yeah, now one works to 1 million a month.

Jeremy Weisz

1 million a month. Nice.

Peep Laja

That’s my goal. Love it.

Jeremy Weisz

Peep it’s been fantastic thing. Thank you so much. I’m gonna, I’m gonna have to queue in the metal wrap at some point. So, thank you. I appreciate it.

Peep Laja

All right, take care. Thank you. Well, that’s why the rap career didn’t work out actually. But it found something easier conversion optimization.