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Oren Klaff 10:06
Yeah, yeah. So this is the issue. You can tattoo this on your arm, you know, if you I don’t have tattoos, but if you want to get one, here’s a good one to get you can cover with flowers or whatever. neediness kills deals. So when you’re cloistering, when you’re approaching, when you’re in somebody’s face, when you’re asking seven times for the sale, when you are constantly present, when you are there and asking, you know, and and constantly approaching, it triggers avoidance behavior, because it’s neediness. Right? So that’s on one side. Now, on the other side, you have to control people, right? So you you can’t just you know, make them a pitch and then walk away and hope they ask to buy it. Right. So somewhere in between, giving a pitch or walking away and being to medium to clustering and to protein is a gray area. Which you have control. And so yeah, in the book when you here’s the issue, if you don’t have intrigue, if you don’t talk about problems, if you don’t frame yourself as an expert, and if you don’t have story like narratives, then all you have is the features of the product, the benefits of the product, and the price. And this is really the problem with most corporate presentations. And I see, here’s the features of our product. We’re number one SaaS software that provides accounting plugins that can reduce your IRS obligation and catch errors and your tax filing. Microsoft uses us Oracle uses us into it uses us God uses us. So here’s our logo. Here’s the benefits you get from working with us and we have the best customer service and here’s how much it is that so when that happens in the first five minutes the pitch the presentation The sale is over. The buyer has all the information he needs to make a decision. He doesn’t need you anymore. He’s got the features. He’s got the benefits, he’s got the price, you’re no longer necessary, and he doesn’t buy it goes to the internet and go, where can I get the same thing cheaper or for free? Okay. So there’s got to be a gray area, in which you say, this is what we have. This is why it’s valuable. Right? And, and I’d like you to buy it, but I’m not sure I’m willing to give it to you. That is the area you have to be able to stand in and live in, is, I want you to an account. I love this account. I’m very interested closes I’m connected. I’m listening. And I’m very excited about this. On the other hand, there’s some things here that scare me about you. Hmm, so I’m trying to figure out now who would say their client I’m looking at you. I looked at your website. I love you guys, but there’s some red flags that I got to clear up. That is when you really are in Your full power as a presenter, when you can say I’m interested, you’re willing to walk away. But I’m also scared and I’m and so I’m willing to walk away is a very abrasive kind of sentiment or idea, right? So when people say to me, you don’t hold that over your head, you know, have other options and willing to walk away. I will always say, go ahead, take one of your other options. That sounds great. Sounds like you have it organized. Right? Good luck. Right? That’s what I’ll say. And most dealmakers, if you hold I’m willing to walk away over their head and overtly, they’ll say great walk away, right? I mean, so the way to demonstrate willingness to walk away is by saying I’m interested and pitching and saying I’m connected and I’m fully present. But there are also some things that I’d have to work out before I be able to do business with you. And that gives us reason for meeting at If there’s not enough reason for a meeting for me to give you the features, and the benefits and the price, that’s a five minute meeting, working out how we’re going to work together the value proposition, the certainty, who we compete against, why we’re the best option, why I’m credible, why the things I say that will that are supposed to happen in the future really will happen, how you can trust me, the the, how good are we at solving the problems that you have? How many times have we solved them, getting those ideas in your head? understanding why things are changing how I’m an expert in that change, how you can be certain that the things I’m saying will happen really well having those reasons for a meeting. Features, benefits, logos, price is not a good reason for an hour long meeting. So I’m not sure if that’s helpful. Yeah,

Jeremy Weisz 14:58
definitely is it It makes me think, Oren. So is there a scenario in mind where the hardest deal you had to walk away from? Because there were just some? Maybe it was, you know, it was just a deal you knew would be a great deal, but there was a few red flags. They’re just tough for you to, to walk away. Is there one that sticks out for you over the years?

Oren Klaff 15:20
Yeah. So I think, again, we started talking about control, right? And the way you ultimately end up controlling a deal is by your values, right? And so that it’s not the hand willing to walk away if the price isn’t right for me. Because I find in my experience deals hardly ever fall apart on price. Okay, especially in today’s world, there’s so much financing mechanisms available. They really fall apart on values. And if you walk away on price, it’s very shrill and bitter, but if you walk away on values, Then it’s, you’ve got a very strong moral authority and deals that you walk away because of your values tend to come back around and close, as often as not, deals that you walk away from because of price very often are just dead. So I would say two out of three deals that broke apart because of your values come back together. Two out of 10 deals are broke apart and price come back together. In my experience across thousands of deals. Let me just turn this off because something is ringing. We don’t want that. Okay. So yeah, that I was, I was in a deal. The company was doing $72 million of revenue $18 million of EBIT da, large company. We were financing the company and then selling it in a pretty large transaction, and everything was going smoothly. And then then ultimately, some of the senior management team of the company was trying to get Well, how should I say I’m overly aggressive with their with how they’re going to treat their taxes? Right? And we would just say you can’t do that, like the government is not confused, you sell something for 100 million dollars. The government doesn’t like, it’s not like you go to DMV and reporting that you bought a car for $40,000 when you actually bought it for $60,000. You know, this, like the government can’t focus on that. But when something sells for 100 million dollars, they know, you know how much taxes are supposed to flow on the AI and the computers and everything. There’s just no way to get around it. And so that deal had a $6 million fee. For me, and it’s $6 million. And as I continue to get more creative with the tax structure, I said this is outside of my value system, and I walked away and $6 million around here buys a lot of diapers and trucks and you know, vacations to Hawaii and top floor for seasons and, and kind of wine that I like. So there’s Not like an extra $6 million lying around. But but that one was incredibly painful when something is outside of your value system. And you can walk away and if it was meant to happen, it will readjust and happen if it wasn’t meant to happen, then it won’t.

Jeremy Weisz 18:15
So the value sometimes you said the value ones will come back around, is it just the other party comes to their senses on value, something like that?

Oren Klaff 18:24
Oh, I’ll teach you something that is very powerful in terms of inserting your value system into a deal for the purpose of using it to help close the deal. Okay. And that is when you’re with a client or with your with an investor or buyer. You know, buyer b2b services is really the world that I live in and help people, right. It’s, you know, as a Jeremy I can’t work on your company. harder than you will I can’t invest more in your company, then you’ll invest in your company. That doesn’t make sense. If you won’t, right, it’s your company, you’re gonna make 20,000,030 million $40 million when you sell it, right? I wouldn’t sell it, I will either make zero dollars, or I’ll make $100,000 What sense is it that I will be working harder investing more money trying harder to help your company, then you are? We’ve got to be in alignment here. Right? And that that has closed more projects than almost anything else because a yes, it’s a lie. Okay, because it’s usable. You can know when to use it. You know how to use it. You can there’s predictable results when you say this thing. And it is a way of getting control. So yes, it’s aligned to to measure of control, but three, it’s authentic and truthful if you really feel that way. So So lots of times people will want you, you know, when you provide your services or whatever it is to provide the first month free or or get paid on the results? Right? And, and it makes no sense for me to work harder than you on your company. Right? And that’s a red flag for me. Let’s figure out what’s let’s figure out what’s really going on here. When you do that, now you’ve stripped away all the you know, the masks and the polite conversation and the games and you’re down to what’s really going on. That’s what I try and do is get down to what’s really going on with her now might just say, hey, Jeremy, what’s really going on here? Just tell me We’ll figure it out. If it’s not right, I’m, you know, now with the phone, right? I’m so easy to get rid of just hang up on me. You don’t have to say goodbye. I’ll understand with the phone down. Right. I’ll pretend you you know, went into a parking garage, or you went in the wine cellar, get another bottle and just hang on and then easy to get rid of. Okay, if there’s really something here, let’s figure it out. Write in and, you know, and then come around to price. And, and there’s all kinds of ways to, you know, handle that. But it’s that’s where alignment is you can’t ask me to send a proposal, write this thing up, figure out how to get you all this value solve your problems. I don’t have your problem, okay? So what we do is we help companies prepare to sell and raise money or go sell deals, right? or increase sales. We don’t have that problem. We’re too busy. We have all the money we need, we can raise all the capital we you have the problem? Okay. you’d like me to solve it. And by the way, you can admit there’s lots of people do this, right. But I’ve solved your kind of problem 1000 times it’s just pushing the button. Now I got 10 people, when I say go, all these guys scurry, they’re not sort of thinking super hard and creatively and wondering how to do this. We do this all the time. It’s stepping out beer cans. I know you’ve got a great company. It’s super creative what you do, you’re a special snowflake and you are, but in reality, go getting you $10 million. It’s, and I know you, and we’ll treat you special and you know, you want to feel like a specialist. No. But when I turn around and turn this over to the guys, they’re just stamping out beer cans. We have solved this problem thousands of times, if you want us to do it for you. Then say, Oren, I love you. I love the way it works. And I want to have you do this. And so then they’ll say something like, Yeah. Or let’s let’s just get started. Right? I’ll say no. So they’ll they’ll ask you by and I’ll say, No, it doesn’t work. Right? This is too hard. We’re going to spend a couple months together. We’re gonna be both sides of me working on this. We’re going to get an argument at some point. And for you to say, Yeah, let’s do it. I have to say Oren. I really love your energy, your experience. I truly believe that We’re gonna make magic together. And I’m really excited about working with you. And I love the idea of us working together. And if you can say that or some version that I’m in, but until I hear that, I don’t think there’s enough here for us to go forward.

Jeremy Weisz 23:11
As you can see, this could cause issues.

Oren Klaff 23:14
Yeah, these, these are some of the things that are a lot better than these are features. These are benefits. These are logos. These are some of our customers. Here’s the ROI. Do you have any questions?

Jeremy Weisz 23:26
You know, you know, one of the stories I love from flip the script or an is the values you just talked about where I think your partner would refuse to sell I think a motorbike to one of the the big picture films. It’s as a great story. Yeah. He did the he did not end up selling it. Right?

Oren Klaff 23:46
No. So so I had this amazing, this amazing partner Elias. He was a famous jet ski racer, and then became a competition level motorcycle racer and he sold me my I probably bought 10,000 motorcycles in the last 15 years. So I was buying motorcycles from him when we became friends. And then the worst idea ever is that I would invest in a motorcycle business but as the best idea as well, right and one thing about Alliance is he had values he loved what he was doing. And so the story you’re talking about here I don’t mind saying he was one of the one of the movie theaters you know that theaters but when the movie production companies you know, you recognize your name like Sony but like Sony came and for movie with a famous celebrity, they said, Look, we were looking for this Italian motorcycle that has this, you know, pedigree and we’re going to, we’re going to destroy it in the movie, you know, we’re going to ride it off and jump in and destroy it. They’re really hard to find allies can find this one, we’ll pay you anything. Right? We have a movie budget, we’ll pay you anything. We need money. You know, we’re a small company, and he put his foot down and he’s said I would never be involved No matter how much money with destroying there, seven of these motorcycles left in the world I would never be involved with so we let go of a quarter million dollar fee or whatever it was there. But on the other hand, all the employees, all the partners, all the industry saw that we stick to our guns. We don’t just do whatever for money. And so the $250,000 or whatever it is that we walked away from not selling Sony, a famous motorcycle, and we would make 10 times over by all the employees in all the industry knowing our word means something, we have values, they may not be perfect. They may not be everybody’s values, but we have values and we stick to our guns and our word means something when your word means something. It carries weight and strength and has transparency and integrity and value to it. And you’re an expert in your domain then the deals will come to you Now we’re sort of full cycle back to where we began, you cannot push a deal in b2b onto investors, you have to attract them to you. What attracts people to other people, values, strength, character, expertise. Don’t worry, domain knowledge, ability to run a meeting ability to move quickly. And so all of those things give you control. Price is one form of control, but it’s the worst kind, you just lower price, lower price, low price until you lower pricing to you basically have no margin left. And then you have a customer and you have revenue, but you don’t have margin. And now you’re frustrated and everybody gets in that position. And by the way, sorry, I’m talking over you. I know you have a million questions, but no God. The things we’re talking about here are counter intuitive. That’s the world I live in. Things are counterintuitive. You think it’s one way but it’s really The other. And so the reason I’m so passionate about these mistakes, because I fucking make them every single day, you have to be intentional about these things. How do I program myself to go into a meeting for 10 minutes, 20 minutes an hour, whatever it is a zoom call present what it is I have attract people to control them in an honest, transparent, fair, kind, warm, empathetic way, but control them and then dup with the deal. I mean, lots of people, you know, eventually they meet me after seeing a podcast or whatever, and they go, Oh, you know, I’m ordering a sandwich and they’re like, how’s Warren trying to control me? Right? Hey, do you mind moving your car? I just got to get my truck in here a little bit. What What game is this? What frame control? What book in my mouth is on? No, I’m just trying to park my fucking truck and you’re moving. So this stuff is very intentional. You cannot hold it for your entire life. And because it’s counting are intuitive. It’s not how closing deals is normal humans are built to do building he

Unknown Speaker 28:09
may kill.

Unknown Speaker 28:13
That’s it,

Oren Klaff 28:15
you know supply side economics as it relates to a $50 million you know security offering in which you privatized with the A and B and split the C Series into a tiered financing of mez senior and equity is not what humans were built to do. It requires a huge amount of intention and focus are the things we’re talking about here. You know, programming to people want what they can’t have. We were programmed to believe in reciprocity. I’m nice to you. I show you all the details of the deal. I show you what my bottom line pricing is. I tell you, you know all the features with the you know, the success stories, the downside and I just tell you what, As I have, right, and then I expect in reciprocity, I expect you to take me at face value to trust me. And to make an honest counteroffer. It’s not how people work. My brother’s an engineer. And he says we’re not you know, we’re totally different. He says, I won’t do any of this framing and gaming and control and positioning, and and intentional and value propositions and programming. I just tell people what it is we have and if they want, you know, and I don’t play games, I said Tamir, it’s my brother’s name. You play the I don’t play games games. Tell you what that is. Like. Sorry, I let you I’m just talking too much. But just a couple things occurred in my mind like Australians culturally. They come here to the US we help them out a lot. Because they have a problem in Australia culturally. They they the way they pitch is they go wrong, mate. This is what we have. This is a pricing is what it is. Would you deliver it to you guys, you can look it up. Very honest about ends up you know, this is a problem and this is what we have in the United States we go, What are you up to motherfucker? Something’s going on here and we just take that as a baseline and then we try and negotiate below that because we assume that is you know that that is the the line. So, frame control, moral authority neediness, alignment, scarcity, expertise, pre wired ideas, these are all things that are required to come together as humans and have somebody trust you. Believe in you want to work with you. Be excited about both your product or your service and you as a person and want to chase the opportunity of working with you, as opposed to grind you down on price as a company modesty, it is problematic. It is not natural. I can tell you people who it looks like they do it naturally. And they’re, you know, sort of are the set of naturals. There is a when you unpack a reverse engineer what they’re doing, it is very programmatic. You will not see really naturals doing things in some random way that doesn’t fit the psychological model that I’ve laid out and flip the script. So I know I talked over you know, God, you’re good. I got I got a, you know, some tailwind and I just kept going,

Jeremy Weisz 31:38
I will keep you going on your tailwind. You know, and

Unknown Speaker 31:41

Jeremy Weisz 31:42
one of the things I want to talk about I love the counterintuitive piece and I don’t know if you would consider this completely counterintuitive, but one of the things I thought was game changing out the book I’ve never heard anyone talk about it like this before was when you talk about status alignment, and you correct me if I’m wrong, but I would like This whole book just called status alignment, and just your stories about SAS alignment, but status alignment versus building rapport. I don’t know, if you consider that sort of counterintuitive. Most people go to building rapport you go, I don’t know if that would be a higher level, just different level. Just talk about status alignment versus building rapport.

Oren Klaff 32:17
What what’s your view on on poor? What is your view on report? Like, how do you? How do you do it? How do you relate to it? So let me critique or agree with sort of your approach. And then I’ll tell you my, you know, my approach within that?

Jeremy Weisz 32:33
Yeah, I guess I would, I would say building rapport, just finding a common ground. We both have interest in something. That’s how I would. So if you went to university, Wisconsin, I went to University of Wisconsin, I would bring that up to you go

Oren Klaff 32:49
to University of Wisconsin. I did. You did? Yeah. So at Madison, Madison. Yep. Yeah, so we were my dad was a did his PhD. Oh, really? Okay.

Jeremy Weisz 32:59
Yeah, very, so maybe That’s a good example. So, you know, and you find a common ground with some of you don’t know. And you you start there somewhere to start like a starting ground.

Unknown Speaker 33:08
Yeah. Here’s the problem.

Oren Klaff 33:13
I agree Jewish geography, university geography, common interest in Marlin fishing. You know, you’re both like skiing. So if it’s really there, it’s nice to have that relatedness. Here’s why people go for report, they go way beyond that relatedness. And they look for and try and force it because they want to feel safe and liked and have social acceptance. It is it is acceptance seeking behavior. Hmm. To explore rapport, you know, for more than 90 seconds for more than 120 seconds in a meeting, right. So and And the thing is we and also weather and did you watch the Superbowl? And, you know, can you believe the, the the upset, you know, the NCAA Tournament or whatever that is not rapport, that it’s sports and weather and politics and nobody buys a million dollar thing. Nobody goes, Hey, look, uh, you know, Jeremy pitched us on the services, it’s a million dollars we, you know, I’m not sure about it, you know, like him as a guy that it seems like we already have these services and we don’t need them that much. But you know what, he really knows a lot about NCAA basketball and then, you know, University of Delaware of fighting blue hands is is I can’t believe he knows about that team. That was my alma mater. Let’s do a deal with him. All right, that doesn’t happen. So the report only makes you feel good. It burns really valuable minutes. It can feel needy if you’re not good at it. And it accomplishes all Almost nothing. So if it is there, hey, you went to University Wisconsin, I went to University Wisconsin. super interesting. You know, we’ll talk about that at some point. You know, how are you guys sheltering in place? That’s great fun to have the kids at home never spent more time with my little boy. It’s amazing the things he gets into during the middle of the day. It’s like The Secret Life of cats, but it’s your little boy. I love it anyway. Look. Okay, so so that’s you know, sort of 33 seconds of COVID it can’t feel like you know, that never happened. But but most people on the zoom calls that I get on to turn COVID into pandering we don’t need three five minutes of commiserating they know the situation they’re at home with their own kids. They know it’s miserable they know God you know, all the old people are going to die. Young people are going to be fine. We need testing we need contact tracing. Very sorry about your the very sorry about the coleslaw and corned beef king of Detroit. passed away this weekend. You heard on NPR horn news but 74 year old guy ain’t corned beef his entire life never worked out a single day, you know passed away from a flu and COVID virus and it’s very tragic. Okay, but I’m not sure that that we need COVID pandering we don’t need whether Penryn so rapport. So it’s not just that rapport exudes neediness, it’s not that it’s just attention seeking or validation seeking behavior. It also uses up time that you could be doing status alignment. Ultimately, and I think you know, now we’ve ended up somewhere, no one does a deal. Easily, smoothly, quickly at a fair price with someone they believe is lower status than them. They will always be grinding on you if you’re in the low status salesman position. So instead of looking for rapport, which does almost nothing Seek to get alignment with them that you are an industry peer that they can do a deal with. That is the magic of what to do in the first three minutes. Not baseball, not weather, not football, not COVID not University of Wisconsin, you can touch on that move on. It is hey, I am your I’m not a sales guy. Although I sell

Unknown Speaker 37:27
Okay, I’m not an account executive, although I executive the account.

Oren Klaff 37:32
Right? I’m not here to, uh, you know, sell your offer you something. I’m here to solve your problems. In the amount of I’ve right, I’ve taken some calendar from my calendar and given it to you. And here’s what we’re going to do with my time. All right. Does anybody need fluids in or out? If not, let’s go.

Jeremy Weisz 37:58
Favorite status alignments. It could be in the book or not in the book, it could be you or someone you consulted with.

Oren Klaff 38:06
Here’s my favorite status alignments, right? It’s not the story you were expecting. But it’s hard for me to remember all this. So we had a client. I wrote a deck for them. They’re in the entertainment industry. They went out and raised $70 million. With the deck that I wrote, I got like, whatever, 100 grand, you know, I didn’t have that time a commission or success fee built in. So I got $100,000 they got 70 million, right? Whenever they call me a couple years later with their new CFO, right, so the my client, john says, Hey, Oren, we haven’t talked in a while, you know, when using the deck, we’ve grown, we’ve done 30 movies, you know, thanks a lot. I’ve got the new CFO, Susan on the line. Right. And we want to go out when I get to do some more material when they go and raise some more money. And so one of the call, right so Oh, hey, you know, good to talk to you again, john. Glad to get the update. Hi, Susan. And I go What would you guys like to talk about? So Susan says, Well, listen, I think a good place to start is tell me a little bit about yourself. You know what you do a little bit about the company and what you think you can do for us. And I go, Okay, great. Hey, listen, Susan. I’m not going to do that. Anything else you want to do on this call? Because I

Jeremy Weisz 39:20
thought you were gonna say something different actually.

Unknown Speaker 39:23
Yeah, yeah.

Oren Klaff 39:25
I’m too busy. To come in at this level, and work it and and take all the effort and energy to frame myself. Explain my successes, what I do what I don’t do, in essence to pitch myself and the company and our last 10 years of work, right and supplicate to a company that I’ve already succeeded for. And the great thing about this is she sputtered about what do you mean you’re not going to do that? So the reason I tell this story is that is the expectation of everybody coming in as a buyer to a CFO, you know, man, the analyst side, right? a CFO, someone in HR legal. Yeah. Tell me about yourself. They have put no work into understanding what you do what you’re great at why the company is considering you, right? If you didn’t put any work in, why should I? And I think this is a great you know, thing that you were saying at the beginning of this meeting in which I was teasing you is they need to come in primed and understanding your value your business, what you’re capable of, in some way working to understand how to get you on their problems. When they come in and go tell me about yourself. What is it that you do? This is a horrible starting point. You got to decide do I want to spend six weeks sir pitching multiple phone calls, sending over information, you know, to edge myself up to be credible and and valuable and appear in the mind of this person, right? So you either have to take them down to where you are or, you know, do so, in that situation said, hey, look, I’m not going to do that work, you do the work I’ve already performed for the company and and she said I’ve never been talked to like that before. And I said you have now right? And and so the great thing about that is, hey, the my guy john said, Hey, can we just put you on hold for three minutes. They went away they talk she came back in and sort of made a you know sputtered a little bit and said, You know, we’re really sorry, I’ve got a little bit better understanding now. We’re really interested in getting a proposal from you for raising another $30 million. Really appreciate you so that you know that so many takeaways in there, but you don’t have to answer the questions that the CFOs the lawyers The analysts ask of you most of the time they’re intended to reinforce their high status position and continually frame you as the needy low status begging for business trying to win something business and and both my books as you know Pitch Anything and flip the scripts are meant to flip that position or the buyer feels low status, they are trying to get you your time your energy, your attention and your value. How do you do that very, you know, through a lot of the mechanisms that we talked about here, you know, I just now you know, having listened to this, hopefully, you know, you can go back into saying Alright, that some mechanisms you can implement immediately. Am I needy? Am I starting the meeting in a high status way? Are my values clear? Am I is one of my values that I will not work harder on the clients business than they’ll work on their own business? Right. Am I giving them All the information in the price, and then they’re just going away to look for something cheaper or better? Or am I really establishing my value and that I know how to solve their problem better than anybody else. And I’ve done it 1000 times before, and I’m their peer in this industry. So and some framework you can put around that, again, is just what we started with. People want what they can’t have, you can’t just tell them you can buy from me. People chase that which moves away from them. You can’t just say, so what do you think there’s something to be interested in? Right? And people only value with that which they pay for. If you’re in the service business, you can’t give people work product to evaluate. Right? The work product is only done when an agreement is made. So hopefully those things will help.

Jeremy Weisz 43:46
Yeah, very helpful. Um,

Oren Klaff 43:48
Hey, Chris. Did Chris Voss cover any of that?

Jeremy Weisz 43:52
We did not talk about status alignment. Why did you think it was important to write the book flip the script, you’re super busy, you have a ton of things that you could be doing. I’m curious of why, why put it in the framework.

Oren Klaff 44:09
I went in, when my agent taught me to do in a second book, we went and visited a bunch of the publishers in New York. So my existing publisher, my new publisher, went to Harper Collins, and I met with the senior editors at HarperCollins in a Gary Vaynerchuk book, and you know, their top publisher. And they told a little bit about flip the script, which at that time is called something different. And the senior editor looked at me and she said, I like you. You’re very dynamic. I don’t think you have another book in you.

Unknown Speaker 44:47
And I was like, you bitch.

Oren Klaff 44:51
But you know what? She was right. flip the script I wrote once. I was about to send it in. And I looked at it and I go, is this truly the follow on to Pitch Anything? The gentleman sold a million copies, no marketing. And I looked at I said, it’s a good book. But it’s not Pitch Anything following. So I told the publisher, hey, I’m not ready, and I rewrote it. Second time. totally new book. So a book is 66,000 words. Now, man 140,000 words. finished it so proud. took a couple days off, got printed, sent into my new extended deadline. I read it, I go. I like this book. But I don’t know if I love it. And I love pitching. And so I sat back and I said, this is closer. But this is not it. I wrote it a third time. I’ll never forget this. We were in the four seasons in Los Angeles. And I just finished it like like in a movie, you know that they’ve done a typewriter that I go Yeah, it’s book I love. I got my little boy like 815 at night of four years old, up too late for his bedtime, and I let him pick on the mouse push the Send key, you know, this is a final manuscript. They’re printing it tomorrow, whatever you send them on this deadline. They’re gonna print like we’re three deadlines too late. And so I wrote the book three times, she was right, I didn’t have pitch or anything like this, boom, it just came out like all this has to come out. This is how the world works. flip the script was much more intentional, find those kernels of really useful, actionable things that can be done today to make money and close deals

Jeremy Weisz 46:44
because some things you do naturally, you were trying to figure out what you were actually doing that Pitch Anything

Oren Klaff 46:50

I knew flip the script, I really had to unpack what is going on here when I do these things, and it took them up. So it took almost 300,000 words to Find 66,000 words that really explained these formulas, but it is quite magical.

Jeremy Weisz 47:07
At what point do you remember a point where you figured out that status alignment piece, because it’s probably something you just do naturally, when you approach someone you’re talking to them.

Oren Klaff 47:18
Here is where I figured it out not so much on the first call, right? But I’m not in a one call clothes business. We don’t sell cars, we don’t sell TVs, right? We, we help people sell their company. And there’s multiple meetings over a couple weeks. And so what I felt was it was pretty easy to get that first call. It was easy to have that first meeting and then the degradation rate or the fall off rate was way too high. Right. And so I was loose as familiarity breeds contempt. As they knew what I had. They knew our capabilities. They started looking around at other companies measuring us it was hard on harder to get them back on the phone because they felt we were, you know, I was a salesperson. So to this, the problem is the status that I have on the first call is going down to the point where I can’t get them on the collagen and they’re controlling me. So that’s when I realized the element that always brings people back to calls, you know and continue to sail moving on, is status. It’s not value, the value you have is pretty much available everywhere. People come to a call to being with an expert, who is charismatic, who understands their problem, who is high status, who is not needy, lots of people work with and who they feel like they are chasing to get to work on their deal. That’s why people come to calls not to hear about value in price.

Unknown Speaker 48:47
Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I think, again, I I think everyone should get Flip the Script.

Jeremy Weisz 48:53
Just for that one piece. I mean, the whole book is great in it’s a really good storytelling book. You will Not be bored at all, just from the get go from the the whole Russian story, the you know, or I was doing I was watching a video of you talking and this really struck me. You have to make a tough decision. And I don’t know if you remember but you had to close $10 million in by 3pm. Yeah. And what struck me was the very end of the video where you decide to just walk away. And I’m curious of the three years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, Oren versus today Oren I don’t know if you will talk about this decision you made at that time. Yeah,

Oren Klaff 49:41
Yeah, I did. I did walk away from that money and I’ve walked away from a lot of money for the same reason. And that’s it. That’s a good video. So and if you if you got kids and you got a family there, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 49:52
I mean, kids used to six an eight year old. I mean,

Oren Klaff 49:55
you probably don’t like your kids that much, but I love just

Unknown Speaker 49:58
sometimes that’s true. Yes.

Oren Klaff 49:59
So, I have one little boy, and he was a magical gift. We got married very late in life. And my wife and I are similar age and we basically, were not not sure you know that we were going to get a family not sure we wanted a family, you know, but we got a little boy, huh. And every single cliche that ever existed in every romantic comedy about stepping on Legos and waking up in the middle night, and our robots are gonna talk to you and you’re hitting it with a baseball bat and the police come in and arresting you and the neighbor and alarms going off and can pee in your face and diapers. Like every single funny cliche is actually true, as you know. And I have reprioritize my life from I got to make 100 million dollars. I gotta make a billion dollars. I got to close every deal. I need every plane and car and toy house and mansion to I don’t care. I mean, I have some of that but I don’t care. When I care about his time with my little boy, my family and I prioritize that. And so if you’re driving through Los Angeles, you know, past UCLA, and you look under the bridge, and you see someone looking like me wearing a baseball hat, you know, and eating some old McDonald’s fries out of a used McDonald’s bag, right? And you said, you know, it’s true, that I prioritized everything over my work, the work is important, but really, the as you have a family and as you have kids that really prioritizes what you’re willing to do, and what you’re willing to, you know how much work you’re willing to work for. So now I walk away from a lot of deals, if they’re going to take time away from my family.

Jeremy Weisz 51:48
No, did that change overnight? Or was it because listen, you’ve been you for many years, right? Yeah,

Oren Klaff 51:55
I did. I don’t really like the interview with you because you’re asking very personal questions and I seem to be answering them so you’ve got some kind of hypnotism going on but I’ve never said this before, but I think the day after the baby was born, I flew to Oregon to Portland and ran a two day board meeting for a company and they said then you just have a baby and I’m like, Yeah, what am I gonna do with the baby? right and and so it did it because I didn’t really understand it baby I never had baby before like babies. And and I didn’t really understand the baby. And you know, the new baby in there with his mom. But But over time, yes, I would say you know, it did it shifted. And today you would need a wrecking crew to pull me away one minute of committed time to my little boy and my wife to get me to go do some work.

Jeremy Weisz 52:48
We often asked questions of sometimes we personally need the answer to so I was just curious. Yeah. on that and you know, it is tough because you have a certain mentality. You have a Certain work ethic you have a certain way you’ve done things for so many years. And it’s just it’s hard to just at a snap of a finger, I think change that.

Oren Klaff 53:07
It is, you know it is and then and then you know now you say okay, I want to do my workouts, I want to get sleep, I want to meditate, I want to spend time with my family, I want to eat well, you know, I want to go on vacation. I’m sorry, when do you work? Right. And so that is when you have to start becoming very intentional about your work very programmatic about what you do. And you just spend a small amount of time really being effective when you know when you have infinite time. It that’s where a lot of these tools and systems came from there in my book from having less and less and less time and needing to be as effective.

Jeremy Weisz 53:48
Yeah, you know, first of all, Oren I want to thank you I have two last questions that I was asked on InspiredInsider but I want to just tell people check out check out it’s KL a I’m telling you, I don’t say this lightly. You need to get Pitch Anything, Flip the Script on my I’ve already listened to it two times is that valuable that I would spend time listening to times and I think everyone should so check out flip the script and I look forward to seeing the movie there should be a movie now you know incorporating that family like all you just all that stuff you just said of the young Oren evolving into into the current origin, you know, but um, so everyone check out everything he has to offer on his site. But in the last two questions I was asking since part insider is, you know, what’s been a really challenging low moment to to push through. And on the flip side, what’s been especially proud moment that you had through this, the whole journey?

Oren Klaff 54:52
Yeah, I think you know, the story I told when I got off the board of this company that we were trying to sell with the $6 million fee. It wasn’t just the I’ve worked on it for over two years. And so too, you know, and just going, I just work on a fucking deal for two years with half my time. What else could I have done with that time? Family self work contribution, community relationships, you know, it’s been working on crappy, you know, medical services. So that was a low point for sure woke up and going two years gone. And certainly, you know, a high point

Jeremy Weisz 55:35
really quick on the low point Oren how do you then your mentality how do you actually come back quick? What do you tell yourself as their self talk after that, because you could you could dwell on I just spent two years in, sit in a corner, but I’m assuming I know you probably don’t do that. So what are you telling yourself internally to just get out of that?

Unknown Speaker 55:58
forwards Life is not fair.

Oren Klaff 56:05
Look around we’re in Southern California driving XYZ cars living by the beach got a beautiful family, you know, shopping at Whole Foods doing work I love a certainly a setback but you don’t deserve anything. There’s no written in the Talmud or the book of life that you are going to get success or money or love or appreciation or or blong life. Right? And you know, lots of people did woke up today dead. Okay. And so life is not fair. You get what you know, like my little boy says, you get what you get. You don’t complain. I don’t really prescribe to that. You see, I complain a lot, but you get what you get. And normally you get what you get because you let it happen, and so on. Yeah, life is not fair, then, you know, just stoic philosophy. Just compartmentalize. You have to do talk to anybody who’s been in a white collar crime lawsuit. Right. And I’ve interviewed some of those people, they it’s just so overwhelming, right? And they just you have to compartmentalize your life and say this, this is this so compartmentalize life is not fair. Get back in the game. And this is one thing I see like once you’re in the game, once you’re in the once you’re in, you know, you’re in the cockpit, you’re shooting bullets and stuff coming to you in a general is going you’re fine. Right? It’s walking up to the cockpit, strapping in, put your hands on the gun when there’s no enemies around that, that’s when you’re afraid. But once you’re in it, you’re in it. And so it’s just getting back in it and and recognizing life is not fair. But you know, the, the, the upside the high you know, the the highlights are. I think the Oh, this is great. I’ll just tell you this and we got to wrap up on my Yeah. So I had built my little boy for their birthday, a monster truck, like truly giant truck. And up to three, I mean, when kids tuned to basically a sea cucumber, like they can talk, like they’re not talking to you not having conversations. Right? So I showed him a picture of it, but he couldn’t, you know, anyway if you have a two year old, you know, but then he told his mom, dad built me a monster truck. And that was like a huge moment because because what happened is he was taking information and then relating it to someone else. And of course, you said your dad would not build you a monster truck, right? You need to learn what a toy is. Right? It’s not a toy. And so he got in trouble. He’s like no, I saw it. It’s real. But then I just realized like this human is now communicating with other humans and I’d be careful about what I tell him. Way, you know, messaging system. Now messages are coming out. That was a you know, not a business highlight, but

Jeremy Weisz 58:59
it comes full circle. Oren, I want to be the first one to thank you. Check out Definitely Flip the Script. Thanks.

Oren Klaff 59:09
Thanks Jeremy.