Jeremy Weisz 15:18
Were there service professionals that you brought on, like externally to evaluate the company, or who did you bring in externally to help with the process?
Mark Gascoigne 15:30
We’re pretty lucky that we’ve had the same accounting firm for several years, they’ve seen us through the ups and the downs, we have sort of a strategic business advisor, the same thing, that helps us. And also, we’re part of a network across Canada called TCAN, which is the Trans Canada advertising network. And so, we have a peer group that we get to talk to, formally and informally, and a lot of them are at the same stage with their businesses. So, there’s a lot of sharing of information and best practices and experiences. So that’s been very helpful.
Jeremy Weisz 16:17
What did you see back then? And what do you see, I don’t know, if you see differences now with how the agency is valued, based on multiples of EBITA, what were you seeing ranges than versus now.
Mark Gascoigne 16:38
We’ve had such fluctuations in the past three, four years, that I think people are looking more to the future than the past, so just because you did have a really good past. And those multiples don’t necessarily inform the future. And vice versa, if you’ve had a tough few years, it’s not as big a deal, I think it’s a little easier to kind of look for it in the agency world, as you know, it’s not like, we don’t sell insurance, we don’t have these things. You know, we don’t have a book of business that’s not going anywhere. So much of it is just dependent on the people there. So now luckily, for an agency like us, we’ve been there long enough, and it has a track record and an unawareness in the marketplace that we tend to get our fair share of, of stuff. So, but I would say that’s it, I think it’s more about the optimism and how you’re trending forward, as opposed to how you’ve done over the past 10 year.
Jeremy Weisz 17:43
Right. They’re looking at the past, like couple years and like you’re trending in a certain direction for revenue. And then what have you seen as ranges of multiples for sale of agencies?
Mark Gascoigne 17:59
I think agencies are probably somewhere around sort of five to five, six or five, six times, it’s not 10 times. It’s not, like subscription service businesses or financial businesses like that. I think it’s probably more in that range.
Jeremy Weisz 18:20
Yeah, like a SaaS company. What about, you mentioned, obviously started this with your wife, what were the different skill sets that you brought to the table each of you brought to the table? And how do you divide responsibilities?
Mark Gascoigne 18:36
We both were what we call suits, we’re both client service strategy side of the business. She tends to be much better at process and sort of the working on the projects, and I tend to be better on this sort of strategy and coordinating sort of taking strategy and the creative side of it. So it’s kind of worked well. We split up the clients that way. And now I don’t really work on any clients. It’s only that and the BD side of it. So we naturally had different strengths and didn’t trip over each other too much in the beginning. So yeah, kind of worked out.
Jeremy Weisz 19:21
What were some of the key hires you made? Like you said, you started off smaller. Now you have a bigger team, what were some of the key hires along the way, and how you grew?
Mark Gascoigne 19:32
Yeah, I’d say, when we joined, it was a creative-only shop, we were creative and design. And now we’re full service. So we early on in the 2000 the naughts, I guess they are late naughts, created a web department. So we’ve had a web department probably since 2006-07 that’s coming on 15 years, soon after that immediate department. And so those would be and we’ve continued to sort of improve, hire up each time, get better quality, immediate directors web people. And probably the latest one is we now have a creative director who he came from another agency, by way of, he was at another agency, then he was a client of ours, and then we drew him back into the business. And so he’s basically a partner of ours, so the three of us. And that’s fantastic to have an executive creative director. And it’s an agency that at the end of the day, that’s the commodity that we have, that is of most value that clients can really can’t do for themselves, is the actual creative mean, they can place media, they can hire a web developer, those things, but the thing that they really aren’t able to do is that creative piece, and so to have an executive creative director, right, kind of in the engine room, we think is a real important piece for Trampoline.
Jeremy Weisz 21:17
As you expanded, Mark, was it because you were just getting demand from the clients for these other services?
Mark Gascoigne 21:27
I’d say it was a combination of that. And the recognition that the quality of the whole campaign is going to be that much more impactful if all the players, the orchestra is all right, they’re in the same pit. And they’re not in different rooms. And so it was just awkward to have a media shop somewhere else. And a web group somewhere else, not that it can’t be done, and not that we don’t use outside. freelancers now, but just on a day-to-day basis, if they’re present, you’re gonna think about it. So the web execution online doesn’t become an afterthought. And creative isn’t done in a vacuum without thinking about what’s going to be the best meaning execution for that target and that geography. So just having them ever present, we feel is just as a better quality output.
Jeremy Weisz 22:33
You mentioned, bringing on director and then it sounds like the director was brought on also as a partner eventually. How did you structure that? And you have to say numbers I’m curious on, there had to be there a certain number of years? And do they have to buy in? How does that structure work to introduce a partner into the business?
Mark Gascoigne 22:59
So at the moment, you don’t have any other partners besides Leslie and I like Equity Partners, and so we’re working through that, and that may change over the coming months and years. I think it’s less longevity, and just more knowing the fit. And back to what I said before I when we were ready, it’s just your station in life and your capacity and eagerness to build something. So those would be the, for some people that might be a few years for some it might be few days. I don’t think it needs to be a hard and fast, kind of apprenticeship into ownership.
Jeremy Weisz 23:44
When I look at your website in the team, one thing that sticks out is a director of operations. And I figure that is a really significant hire someone who’s overseeing the operations. At what point did you decide we need a director of operations? And I’m curious what exactly you were looking for in that position?
Mark Gascoigne 24:12
Yeah, our Director of Operations, Larry, he came through the business, he was a designer back in the day. And at the end of the day, we’re a production facility, we’re producing stuff and so, there’s a bit of chaos in the conception of it, and the creation of it, a lot of moving pieces, but then it needs to get into production. It needs to move along in the process because it needs to be packaged up and shipped out at some point. So to have somebody that is not beholden to the client, not beholden to the creative not beholden to the media strategy, that’s kind of above or beneath all of that. And that happens pretty early. I would say that happened as soon as we went from just being a creative shop and had all the other pieces.
Jeremy Weisz 25:15
If someone’s looking to hire Director of Operations what are some of the attributes that you have found in Larry or anyone that would be paramount to be successful?
Mark Gascoigne 25:29
I would say, it would be a disservice if they were a people pleaser. I think they have to be sort of agnostic to the players and beholden to the product. And that’s tough. A lot of times, it’s just easier to try to please the person in front of you. But yeah, I think you need to hold the thing that’s being produced as being the most important and that’ll serve everybody. So, that was it, obviously, I mean, all the things that they need to be processed and need to be detailed. And all those things are pretty simple on every job description, but I think not being afraid of conflict and little friction. I think that’s an important aspect.
Jeremy Weisz 26:23
Like you were saying, Larry started in a different position. And then kind of seems like you recognize that this person is being a director of operations. What did you see in him at that point, there’s like, he’d be really good at this, right? Because there’s other people who probably had his job before that maybe wouldn’t have been the best director of operations.
Mark Gascoigne 26:47
Yeah. Well, he had done it at another place. And he’s from Calgary, and he moved here to Halifax just for a change about a dozen years ago. And I remember the day I called him, and this was indicative of back to sort of the people pleaser part. I call them because we were desperate for somebody. And I liked the way his resume looked. And he said, oh, yeah, sorry. I asked me if you could come in that afternoon. And he said, well, I’m painting my deck. And I said, well, what time we finished? And he said, about an hour about three, I said, okay, well, how about four? And so he did begrudgingly, and it worked out. But right away, I knew it wasn’t someone that was just going to kind of tell you what you wanted to hear.
Jeremy Weisz 27:38
That can be good and bad, I guess, right? Do you really want a job or not? Like, I’m offering you something here? Let’s talk about the milestones. So some of the pre-COVID and then we get into during, what are some of the pre-COVID milestones that stick out to you.
Mark Gascoigne 27:53
Yeah, I mentioned before about seeing an ad in the wild for the first time that even know was happening was a good one. And then I think a lot of agencies have their first seeming success period, when they get a big client, and a big client is a big part of their business and everyone scurrying around, and everyone’s working on that one client, and then it becomes, half of their business and the tail starts to wag the dog. And I think that that is a disservice to both the client and the agency, because the reason why a client comes to an agency is for objective thinking and fresh thinking and experiences from other clients. And not necessarily, otherwise, it’s just an in-house department. So we went through that exact same thing. We went through that stage, but we had one client that was 50% of more of our business. And so I think probably after six or seven years, when we finally had no client more than about 20% of our business, that was a real milestone and something that felt really good. And, and today, there’s no one that’s even close to that. And that feels good.
Jeremy Weisz 29:17
So when you have that 50%, what are you thinking in your mind, just we need to hustle and get more clients, this person not more than 50%? Like, what are you doing? Or what are you communicating with the team at that point?
Mark Gascoigne 29:31
Well, it’s such a double-edged sword because you know that you’re beholden to them. So you know that that’s a dangerous position to be in. And you’re not big enough that I mean, everybody’s working on it. So there’s that and then everyone’s so busy working on it, you don’t have time to find other stuff. So it just becomes this cycle and then also when you do go to try to pitch other business, obviously, there’s conflicts, you can’t get business in that space. Because it’s not liking say, well, we can bring on another client in the space. And we’ll put up a Chinese wall because it’s just obvious that can’t happen at a low agency. And so, it looks like all you do is that category, because that’s all your case study has that work. And so it just makes it difficult for you to be attractive to somebody else.
Jeremy Weisz 30:32
Yeah, it’s because then you get pigeonholed, right? You’re like, this is what we do. So then how do you break out of that? How did you eventually go from okay, there was 50% now it’s only our base clients 20%. And then not even close to that.
Mark Gascoigne 30:47
Yeah, you know what, there was a conscious moment where we were, well, for one thing is we resigned that client was a tough thing to do in 2006. And so that helps that. But the other thing is, it’s interesting, you say about experience, we looked at categories and realize retail is an important one. Professional Services are important ones, we sort of looked at the categories, and we just went and got anyone we could small, like retail, we just went did some work for a small sporting goods store. And now we have the region’s biggest mall, and could do really anything in the space. So it was just a matter of kind of laddering up to it. And it’s almost less about your capability as it is your being able to convince somebody that you could do it.
Jeremy Weisz 31:47
What did that sales process look like? Because you go out, and now you have, you’re basically going into a different category? How do you reach out and then eventually, you said, you built up to get one of the largest sporting goods stores? What is the initial kind of process look like?
Mark Gascoigne 32:04
Yeah, just targeting, just sort of reaching out finding out who the people are asking to have a conversation. Sometimes it can take two or three years before you kind of get a sniff. And sometimes you never do. But we believe that fit is very important. So there’s no point in us going after a client that we’re not going to be able to do the work for. So, we need to get smart on it. And often we find things that will be of interest to them, and share them with them, send them links to articles we found, whatever it kind of takes to just show them that, it’s something that we’re interested in, and then have some kind of affinity for, or at least, we are able to ask the right questions.
Jeremy Weisz 33:04
Just kind of throughout the years, just being as helpful as you can and pointing things out. And then eventually there’s a trust that’s built sounds like, yeah, for sure. So pre-COVID, during COVID. What sticks out as a milestone?
Mark Gascoigne 33:21
Yeah, well, I’ll tell you what was really heartwarming about during COVID is I don’t know about your own sort of buying patterns. But it seemed that a lot of us kind of retrenched back to who we trusted, people weren’t changing, if they were buying a car from a guy before COVID, they went back to that same guy during COVID, or if they, you just pick a category pick something people tend to, and we found that with agencies, so certainly, a lot of marketing budgets got eradicated because they’re in a category that nothing’s happened if you’re in travel, or if you’re in fast food, or initially, or whatever. But if you’re in building supplies, you couldn’t keep the stuff on the shelves. But we found that clients that we’d had for a long time, certainly didn’t leave us and some clients that may have recently not, we hadn’t been working with came back. And so that felt good, that we were there wasn’t a ton of new business out there. But the stuff that was they were kind of saying, okay, you don’t have to pitch it. We’re good to go. Let’s get going.
Jeremy Weisz 34:43
And then what about post-COVID?
Mark Gascoigne 34:47
It’s definitely taking a little while to sort of the traction but I think one thing that we’re very optimistic about and happy about and we’ve seen from two or three clients Is that have, over the past 10 years, he stopped their work into all the different so called specialists, media, creative, web, SEM, SEO, PDR, whatever, they’re coming back to a full-service agency, and if it could be an AOR relationship, or at the very least having someone to help quarterback at all, they were just getting exhausted with trying to coordinate all those pieces, because so many at we all did, clients agencies had so much turnover. So that made it difficult for the clients, Stephen know, who those suppliers might have been. And then even within those suppliers, that some of the pieces changed. So, what we’re seeing, we’re seeing kind of back to the old agency days, which we’re happy about.
Jeremy Weisz 36:02
One of the campaigns that stuck out for me, when I was researching is, get up there. Can you talk about that?
Mark Gascoigne 36:11
Yeah, in 2008, my dad died of colon cancer. And so a bunch of us were just kind of strategizing or kind of shooting the shit about what we could do to raise awareness for this, because we either didn’t know much about it. But I quickly learned that it’s a very unique cancer. And as much that it takes years to develop, and there are early warning signs, some are a little harder to find out than others. But it’s one of those cancers that if detected early, the survival rate is amazing. And it really obviously, concerned me that it’s something my dad must have had for years, and had been found a few years sooner, he would have been fine. So we got on a bit of a crusade for that. And now, in Nova Scotia, we have a screening program. That is, obviously, we have public health here, and everybody over the age of 50, gets a kit in the mail. And it’s a simple test that you do, and you send it in. And if it pretty well 100% guarantees that you’re not going to get it if you go through the program, or once it’s detected, then it can be dealt with, hopefully, at an early stage. And so that’s something that we have been doing now for 15 years, and we’ll keep doing forever.
Jeremy Weisz 37:52
And then what are some of the things you do around it? I’ve seen the videos out there. Right, so what kind of media and things are you doing for the organization.
Mark Gascoigne 38:05
So, it’s been very much and, we have a match around here that advertising is the last thing we do. And what we mean by that is that it’s the best form, I mean, at the end of the day sales is everything or change behavior. And the best way to do that is get in front of someone and talk to him about it and give them a course of action. So obviously, you can’t do that to everyone. And that’s why I have advertising. But there are lots of other things in front of that. So over the years, we’ve had a fundraising campaign that’s been going and awareness campaign every March, and working with a local hospital, and we’ve raised millions of dollars for that. And so, that’s that classic gold type of marketing where you get, it’s a lot easier to have 100 tables of 10 and sell 100 tickets than it’s gonna sell 1000 tickets. And so, we have a legion of people out there that are now part of get up there who raise funds and awareness. And the amount of advertising that’s required really is just reaching out to that nation of people and it’s and it’s just ever expanding. We just got to know recently that so this screening program I was telling you about in Nova Scotia, if you did have a positive test, you could have waited as much as six months before you got a colonoscopy. The money that we’ve raised over the past few years has outfitted some colonoscopy suites that are now dedicated strictly to people that have been a part of that program. So now the waiting list is two weeks. So if you did this test, got a positive response, you’d have a colonoscopy within two weeks. And so that’s from the money that we got…
Jeremy Weisz 38:17
That’s great. Thanks for sharing that. I’m sorry to hear about your dad. And what’s the lesson you learned from him?
Mark Gascoigne 40:07
He once said to me, because I had done a few things. Early in my career, I was in the ski business, I worked in the resort business, I liked the marketing side working for companies. He did say, before you’re 40, make sure you’re doing something you love to do. So I definitely got involved in advertising before then. So as I said before, I’ve thought I might be able to before I’m 50, but it’s okay.
Jeremy Weisz 40:35
Mark, I have one last question. Before I ask it, just thanks for sharing your journey. Thanks for sharing your stories. Everyone can check out trampolinebranding.com to learn more. My last question is just some of the organizations and people that have you know, been mentors to you. I know you mentioned TCAN as one. What organizations that people influenced you in your journey?
Mark Gascoigne 40:59
There’s a sort of the grandfather of advertising in Canada. His name’s Frank Palmer. He’s based in Vancouver. He’s been a great mentor over the years. He’s got a couple of books out there. He worked for an agency called Palmer Jarvis. And then he was bought out by DDB. And it’s funny, I said we’re part of TCN, which it’s a network of independent agencies, although he has been kind of the chairman ceremonially, for the past 20 years, even though he was part of the DDB network, because he was such an entrepreneur. I think that starting with someone the other day, and he was lamenting over the fact that it’s so hard to find marketing people and companies for companies. And he was saying that they tend to be, you know, islands on their own within the companies. And it’s hard to integrate them into the companies and what are kind of the characteristics you should look for. And the good marketers really are generalists, because if they’re good at something, then they’re just going to do that thing at the expense of everything else. But if they’re kind of a little bit good at everything, then they’re going to be much more willing to go and find the best at those things. So I think that agencies are the best when they’re generalists, because we’re not going to pretend that we do. We shoot the best TV commercials, no we don’t, we come up with the great ideas, but we will find the production company that will shoot that or we’re not going to go take the pictures on our own iPhone, we’re going to get the best photographer. So, I think we know back to what I said before, we know what a great ad it is. And we know what a great pitcher is. And we know what a great something else, but it doesn’t mean we have to do it. And so that’s probably the best lesson that I’ve learned over the years.
Jeremy Weisz 41:53
Mark, I want to be the first one to thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your story. Everyone check out more episodes of the podcast trampolinebranding.com and Mark thanks so much.
Mark Gascoigne 43:25
All right, Jeremy, thank you.
