Jeremy Weisz 16:48
You mentioned one of the things was the results and the transparency and the personality. What was an example of or story of you said, we call the spade a spade? Like you just give it to him straight? What was the example of where you had to do that?
Kevin Delano 17:10
Yeah, I mean, I would say, this might broad stroke at in any agency-client relationship, generally, what I’ve seen is you’re getting results, you’re finding out information. And sometimes you want to see that most often before you present it to the client. So there’s an opportunity to either sugarcoat it or soften it, discuss what you decide what you want to share and what you don’t want to share. And that happens all the time. And we decided at an early age, we’re not going to do that we want to share the results at the same time we get them no sugarcoating, no manipulation, no verbiage, these the results. And we did that. And some of our clients were shocked by that. And at first there was turbulence with that, and then they got accustomed to this is the way we’d want to do it. If we were doing it ourselves and in sourcing it not outsourcing it, this is what we would see. And so real live examples, number of hours worked, number of stores called on number of cases sold. All three of these key variables can be manipulated, you can pick a time and date, you can run that calendar to a Friday afternoon, or you could run it to Sunday night at 10pm. So there’s lots of little ways that you can manipulate that data. And you hear it with sales organizations today. Well, it’s at the end of the quarter, we haven’t hit the numbers, let’s pump, pump, pump, and we’ll take some next quarter sales. And we’ll book them on the last day here and we’ll make this quarter look good. We just didn’t do that. Like we just, the numbers are real, we’re gonna stick to the same goalposts every time we’re gonna measure something, and we’re gonna give you the good, bad and the ugly, and, again, turbulence up front, but then people really subscribe to that model and methodology, which is the same methodology I’m doing today with Karma.
Jeremy Weisz 18:58
It sounds like at that point, at this point, you figured out some of this permanent part-time staffing issues, but then you hadn’t exactly. So how are you finding talent so quickly, as you’re growing so quickly, back then?
Kevin Delano 19:14
On the experiential marketing side, which is your typical 17- to 28-year-old, doing brand ambassador work passing out samples, that market is an evolution market, there’s a big turnstile with it. It’s typically University kids, some younger, some older, but typically that window, and so you kind of have a fresh crop every 12 months. And so that business, although it’s hard to manage it, there’s always a steady stream of people. On the permanent part-time, I think we hit it at a good time. We really didn’t struggle with finding people who are qualified to be able to do the work that we were doing at the pace that we were growing. I would say today, those models have evolved to maybe a little even more full-time work. And I think that’s causing more problems, the gig economy, you want your tactical workforce, I think there’s a good pipeline of people coming into that workforce all the time, permanent part-time, I think there’s a good steady body of resources to be able to draw from because there’s lots of people who want to work part-time. The full-time ones are the harder ones now, because now the expectations coming out of pandemic are higher wages, bigger commitments, what’s the benefit plan? What’s my RSP? And what are all these things that you’re going to do for me now, because it’s an employee market. Before the pandemic, it was an employer market. And so that market is definitely harder for us. And we’re seeing the pains of that in the post-pandemic era, for sure.
Jeremy Weisz 20:48
What were some of the you mentioned, you hired leadership pretty quickly actually, a lot of times the people I talk to, it’s like, it’s over years, maybe even a decade? And yours was within a year? Looking back, what were some things that maybe you did right? Or maybe you could improve on as far as like putting a leader? I mean, you’ve done this multiple times, like, how do you now think about putting a leadership team together for business?
Kevin Delano 21:21
Yeah, that’s a great question. I mean, one of my life lessons, when all my different ventures is talking about leadership, it starts with the partnership. And so that’s a whole chapter in itself to do you know, what’s the right kind of partnership you want going into it? And how do you manage that? And how do you exit from a great partnership. But let’s park that one, leadership team, so let’s call that your executive level, let’s call it director level, you’re right in many of the ventures, that had to be brought on quickly, in order for us to scale the business. And so, at that time, we hired people who had the relative experience, we definitely paid them higher than the market would pay, they were making more money than the owners of the company. And we had to invest in that. And it was a long-term strategy. So back then, if I was making $10 an hour, they were making 15. And we had as the owners we had, and those are the real numbers. But we as the owners had to subscribe to the fact that we’re going to invest in this and maybe even lose money for the next year or two to over-invest in these resources in order for us to scale in the future. So those were big bets, we didn’t have a lot of money. And those bets worked 99% of the time, I think when we grew our business, we got north of 50 to 60 million, our consultants would come in and tell you guys need it, you need to be ready, now you’re going to the next level. And so you should think about outside leadership. So, we always held the executive positions, quite honestly, the president CEO and the executive VPS. But then, our consultants were saying, well, maybe you should bring in an outside president, and they’re going to help you get to that next level. And so we said, okay, put our egos aside, let’s do that. And we went through four presidents, and not one of them lasted more than six months. And we concluded, don’t doubt yourselves, we are smarter than what our consultants know about our business. We know our business better than anybody that’s going to come from the outside. And if we need help to scale, get us some financial help get us some capital help. We don’t need our business help. And so that was a life lesson that to this day, I have not altered from in all my ventures, I am not bringing in an outsider who doesn’t know the industry to run my companies. I’m going to continue to do that.
Jeremy Weisz 23:38
I was gonna say, now you would you would grow someone with him? Or it’d be yeah.
Kevin Delano 23:42
Absolutely. Yeah. From within. And I’ve done that successfully. And in a number of the companies, I think the other key to leadership, is we always set out to hire people smarter than we were surrounding us. And that’s hard to do. Because you can’t judge it that well. In an interview, like this is a process and we just don’t do your standard one-hour interview, check your references and away you go. You’re hired. We do experiential interviews, we do dinners we do, let’s go for lunch. And this is the way we’re dating. And you’re doing this at a speed that is comfortable for both, because these are big decisions. But I’ve always surrounded myself with I believe people to be smarter than me. I’m not afraid to do that. I hope that they are. And one of my examples. I started a med tech company called IMD. You might recall when I was my first week of university, I thought I was going to be a doctor. And I quickly learned I actually don’t like going to doctors. I don’t like going to hospitals. I don’t like the sight of blood. I cannot be a doctor. And so I started med-tech company and I am selling products and services to doctors to pharmacists to hospitals. I know nothing about it at all. But here I am not afraid and because of the life lessons I’ve got, I can apply my skills and I go higher to VPs, from the pharmaceutical industry in the med tech industry, and that’s the only reason why that company was a success. It was not because of me. And so, those are big lessons to learn and powerful ones for sure.
Jeremy Weisz 25:13
Let’s talk about the go back to the learnings and exit piece. When someone’s starting a company in their early 20s, they’re not thinking about exiting, right? What are some things you wish you would have put in place along the way if you were thinking, oh, we should probably plan for an exit someday?
Kevin Delano 25:31
Yeah. That is my, if I have my top three life lessons of being an entrepreneur, this is one of them for sure. And you’re right, when I started CIM, we did not have exit in mind, all we thought talked about was growth and where our revenues would be and how profitable we think we should be. We never thought about so what’s the accent? I’ve taken that and when I did exit that business, there was turbulence for sure. Between my partner and I, we had to go to a shotgun situation. And I’ll leave the rest confidential. But there was a lot of lessons along the way. And every venture since that, when I’ve written my business plan on my strategy, a part of that is the exit strategy. So what is the market? What’s the size? What kind of multiple? Who would be potential buyers? What market segment? How do they value your company in this? And like, even with Karma today, people look at us and say, are you what people services company? Or are you a technology company, and I say I’m a technology company. But when I talk to investors, and they say, well, I think your services company, I need to keep pivoting and changing what’s happening within my team and my strategies to get us to a technology multiple, because that’s the exit strategy. Tech multiples are much higher than services, multiples. And so those guiding principles are shaped our board meetings, they shape our strategy, because we know where we want to end up. And I already have a short list of companies where I think that exit will happen for each one of my businesses. So life lesson, think about the end in mind, plan it, build your strategies around how you’re going to achieve that and don’t get mired in all the noise that comes your way stay focused on that plan. And it should happen.
Jeremy Weisz 27:08
Knowing what you know now with what happened, what would you put in place would just be like different agreements that if x, y happen.
Kevin Delano 27:20
In my legal agreements on my shareholders agreements, all of them now moving forward from my lessons from the CIM days, I’ve got exit strategies in there, what are the multiple expectations, I’ve got a shotgun provision in every single one of them, because you just don’t know your partners. And you don’t know what happens in life with your partner, somebody might become ill somebody might decide to move away, and not working the business. So we’ve got shotguns and provisions. We’ve set floor ceiling prices in the agreement, we’ve set expected multiples if there’s going to be a management buyout. So all of these kind of terms that are used in exiting a business, I’ve already baked into our agreements. So it’s black and white. In fact, even down to compensation, I put trigger a table in place that says based on these revenues, and this profitability for the senior leadership team and ownership group, here’s the compensation we’re going to receive when we hit these milestones, there’s no discussion, there’s no conversation about it. This is what we’ve all subscribed to, this is what we’ve signed to. And when we hit these, we’re good. So the only gray area, because I’m doing it right now, actually, I’m having some conversations about capital for future growth is, you can’t control what the markets do. And you can’t control valuations, and you can’t control who’s gonna buy you. But these are regular conversations at the board, we talk about it every quarter, just to see if there’s been any shift and change. And some of those organizations that are on those lists I’ve already had conversations with, and it’s not about, hey, buy me now or invest in me now. It is talking about our service and get them excited. And in fact, three of them are actually clients of mine. This is a long-term strategy. I haven’t even hit them yet with what I want to do with them. But I want them drinking my Kool-aid for a couple of years. And then I believe that timing is going to be right. And it shouldn’t be I hope, a bit of a bidding war. When that time comes.
Jeremy Weisz 29:15
Talk for a second if people aren’t familiar with the concept of the shotgun situation.
Kevin Delano 29:21
Yeah, so in a shareholder agreement, hopefully you…
Jeremy Weisz 29:24
By the way, this doesn’t involve actual guns.
Kevin Delano 29:26
Yeah, there’s no guns. It’s a clause in your shareholder agreement that basically forces the hand of a shareholder. So whether you’re two shareholders or many a shotgun, I could issue Jeremy, if you and I were partners, and we have a shotgun provision, I could issue you the shotgun. And what it says is I’m going to buy the company that we own for X dollars, and you’ve got 10 days, 20 days to decide if you want to sell it to me for X dollars. And if your answer is you don’t want to sell it to me, then you actually have to buy it from me at that same price. It forces a decision. Somebody is buying the company, it’s whether it’s the person who’s issued it, or the person who’s received it.
Jeremy Weisz 30:10
And also, it forces the person to think of a fair price, right? Because if you’re like, hey, I want a billion dollars for this, then the person says, no, then you have to buy it from me for that amount. Oh, yeah. Right.
Kevin Delano 30:24
It keeps everybody honest and enforces a decision. And again, it’s kind of a last-ditch effort. If you hit a stalemate, I’m assuming before you hit to a shotgun, you’ve had a lot of conversation, maybe you’ve tried management buyouts, maybe you’ve tried different liquidity opportunities for the shareholder that maybe isn’t as happy. That’s a last-ditch effort, but it works. And it’s a great tool.
Jeremy Weisz 30:46
Let’s talk about Karma Casting. I mean, I feel like you created the solution you wish you had, as CIM a little bit. And I’d love to hear how you think about because every, I’ll make this generalization, I think is right, every service company wants to be multiple than sell for a SaaS tech platform price, right? I can tell you, this is from my observation, but like, kind of like the Uber for staffing problem and staffing, essentially. And Uber is a tech platform, but how do you get because some people may think, oh, this is a service, is it tech? How do you get in position this analysis, you create it? So it is tech, even though there’s people involved?
Kevin Delano 31:37
Yeah, I mean, this is probably you’re hitting on one of the biggest pain points we have in our business. And so, I spent 25 years in the third-party sales and marketing industry. I left did med tech, I wanted to come back into our industry, but I want to do it different and you hit the nail on the head. I know it gets overused, but we are the Uber for the XM industry. And so what does Uber do? It’s a tech platform that matches drivers with passengers. It’s quite simple. And it’s a marketplace. So money flows in there, you can see who they are, it’s very transparent. And so having learned lessons for 25 years of all the pain points in managing talent, both from a marketing program or an outsourced Salesforce program, we created Karma, and we are the leading app in North America. We have over 60,000 brand ambassadors today using our app, and that’s about 30,000 in each country and growing daily. We represent over 500 corporate clients. And it’s working. And we’ve been doing it for seven years now. And so how do we adjust the difference? So we call ourselves a tech platform. And we supply and produce people through that tech platform. And like Uber, we connect talent to brands, like Uber is drivers to passengers. And so there’s a bunch of stuff that happens in between there. But that’s in essence, what the Karma platform does. We decided not to be distracted, like any other agency, lots of agencies are full service, they do brand, they do strategy, they do communications, they’ll get you some swag, they’ll get you a deco vehicle, we don’t do any of that. We’re a marketplace on an app that allows and puts the control of the gig economy in the marketing space in the hands of the brand ambassador, they’re sitting at home, they’ve created a profile. It’s 200 questions deep. We’re casting for talent, we’re not recruiting staff. And there’s a big difference there. And based upon what you put into the app, of when you’re available to work, the skill sets you have the profile you have the language you speak, your body type, your body size, all of those things go into the app, you then get broadcasted messages saying, hey, here’s some gigs in your market. Do you want to work for these Coca Cola American Express Costco, I could go down the list. And they apply right there through the app. And when they click on that button, it tells you all about the gig gives you a map of where it’s located where you have to be. It tells you all the training that has to happen. It tells you exactly what time you need to be there. And then the app really takes over because there’s 1000s of people working all the time. And obviously, management can’t be everywhere. And so if you had 10 people working in LA, they all have to check in through the app, take a facial recognition software. So we know it’s the person we hired. We know it’s the person we trained. And it’s also through GPS coordination. We know exactly where they’re located. And in this industry for 25 years, I can tell you there are problems. People accept gigs, they don’t show up, people take a gig and they send their sister. People say I worked four hours, but three of them I was sitting at home. And so our app eliminates all of that. We know full transparency.
Jeremy Weisz 34:47
That’s why the facial record. I’m sure there’s a feature, because someone is messed up, right. It’s like, oh, they sent someone else. We need a facial recognition feature. Right?
Kevin Delano 34:56
Yes, that’s right. They do and there’s entrepreneurs and I didn’t, I don’t even think about that. Yeah. So facial recognition, GPS coordination, they execute through the app, they’re taking pictures, real time data, they have to check out. And in our world, they don’t get paid unless they checked in and checked out using their mobile phone. And the clients getting that data in real-time. As we get it’s fully transparent. And we know exactly what they’ve worked. And they also get paid within two days through the app. So, we actually right now have got 60,000 brand ambassadors, we don’t have an HR department, and we don’t have a payroll department, which most people say how the heck are you doing that. And so we have turned this model and the experiential marketing agency model upside down. In Canada, we have zero competitors in the US there are two players do similar work that what we do, one of them is very similar to us. The other one is not. And this is the biggest business problem we have is being SaaS, when you talk to the capital markets, everybody gets excited all your SaaS revenue, SaaS revenue, and you’re gonna get bigger multiples. We want to be SaaS revenue, but there’s a big difference. SaaS revenue it’s just like you got Microsoft on your laptop, you pay a licensing fee, you don’t talk to anybody, and you just get to use the software. In our world, you have that. But we also supply you the people. And so, it’s a two-headed horse here. And both of them are equally important for us. And it is a differentiator. So if Coca-Cola wants to hire 500 people to do a national campaign across the US. When they come to us, we actually give them the 500 people, other agencies don’t do that. And so it is a competitive advantage. We just need to continue to message how we’re a tech platform that produces that people. And that’s the big conundrum that we’re in right now.
Jeremy Weisz 36:47
Yeah. Have you had companies come to you just to use a platform for their internal staff?
Kevin Delano 36:53
Yeah. And you say no. And that’s a tough one. That’s a tough one for us to say, and that’s being about the young guy anymore. But I’m still not afraid to say no. And why is that we want to be North America’s largest experiential marketing marketplace, we are that we’re on pace to do that we’re 60,000 people now in our marketplace. We think by the end of this year, we’re going to be close to 90,000 people in our marketplace, as soon as we allow somebody to use our software as a service. Now, there’s two marketplaces, and another company. Now there’s three, we want all brand ambassadors, their first place to go to get the good work is to go to Karma. And there, they’re going to see hundreds and hundreds of brands they can work for. And we are about 50% of our business is brand-direct relationships. So we sell directly to the brands, let’s say like Coca-Cola, and the other 50% are through agencies. So pre-pandemic, our agency business was small, coming out of the pandemic, agencies had to right size downsize, they got rid of HR, they got rid of recruiters, there was no live events, they lost a lot of the brand ambassadors, we actually held on to them, because we had a lot of gigs going because different types of gigs, not just people experience gigs. And so those agencies now are not bringing all those fixed costs back. And they need to outsource. So some of our biggest competitors pre-pandemic are now our biggest customers post-pandemic.
Jeremy Weisz 38:22
How do you vet these? You mentioned? There’s like a 200 question questionnaire, because obviously, it’s the people then, how have you found the best that these people because it’s your reputation, someone doesn’t show up? Someone said someone else, someone’s not. Yeah, they show up. And they’re terrible. I mean, there’s, you’ve probably seen every iteration of this.
Kevin Delano 38:46
Yeah, we’re still dealing with human capital and weather events, snow storms in Canada, and dog ate my homework, these things still happen dealing with talent. And so, one of the things we’re very proud of is we deliver a 99% compliance rate if a brand has asked us to do, we’re doing a major event in Las Vegas, next month, 300 people, we will deliver 99% of that target of 300 people and we’ve delivered 99% compliance for seven years straight. And that’s because our technology knows almost in advance if somebody has been hired, and they’re supposed to be at the event at 10 o’clock in the morning, we know through GPS coordination at 9am if they’re actually moving, they get text messages saying get ready for your shift, you need to be getting dressed and driving to your event? We know at 10 o’clock, if they’ve checked in or not. If they haven’t, they’re getting an instant phone call saying where are you? My manager can then instantaneously re-recruit for that within minutes, other agencies will be hours. And so that’s how we’re delivering 99%. The way we deliver the vetting process is when you complete a profile with us it goes into our group and they actually validate the profile out. So there is human interaction on the back end, I’ve got a team to people that make sure that we’re vetting all the folks based upon experiences and all that kind of stuff, they get a five-star rating within our system. So all 60,000 people today are five star rated. If you’re brand new to our ecosystem, you don’t have a rating. So we’re gonna cast you, we’re gonna put you onto a gig, when you get casted and put on a gig, you also have an interview with my team. So it’s not all digital, we still need to validate the information, just so people don’t put in fake stuff. And so that human interaction also is part of the validation process. When they are executing the gig, if they are not doing a good job, we are going to hear about it from the client from the retailer or from the event personnel. And that goes right back into our system, it goes right into their five-star rating. If somebody has done a horrible job, and they’re just not a fit, we get rid of them out of our system by social insurance number. If it’s a training opportunity, then we put them through what we call Karma University. And so we give them some core training. And we’ve got those systems set up. So we’re pretty robust on the training side.
Jeremy Weisz 41:08
Yeah. I ask about that because that in itself, that process in technology in phone itself is valuable. I’m sure companies would pay just for that vetting piece that you do and how you do it. Because you’ve done this with you’ll be doing this well, it was 90,000 people, right. So I’m curious Kevin, what’s built in based on feedback, right? I mean, you knew this industry, obviously, in and out, but you still, this is a different platform, like people haven’t done this before. What did you get feedback from your clients that you actually built into this product?
Kevin Delano 41:46
Yeah, first and foremost, the person that was staffed and recruited and trained is not the person that showed up, that happens is called gig switching. It happens all the time, there are entrepreneurs across North America, that will all, one person except six shifts on a Saturday. And then they outsource it. And if they’re getting paid 25 bucks an hour, they’ll sell it to somebody else at 20 bucks an hour, and they’ll make five sitting at home. This happens all the time. Because there’s 1000s of people in the brand managers sitting in some office somewhere, they have no exposure to this. So gig switching is the biggest problem we had to solve. So we did that through facial recognition software. The second biggest issue was people pretending to work and showing up late, leaving early not showing up at all sitting at home watching the football game and collecting a check. So we had to do that through GPS coordination, those are two fundamental issues. And I think the third one that was really hurting the brand ambassador marketplace, the BAs, or brand ambassadors generally don’t work, don’t get out of bed for less 100 bucks. So that’s a minimum four-hour shift at $25 an hour, on average. If you’ve worked a four-hour shift, do you think you want to wait two weeks, four weeks, six weeks, eight weeks for the next payroll run to send you your $100? Check? The answer is no. The gig economy is about here. And now it’s the Uber experience, you get paid now. And so we had to find a solution across North America to instantly pay people and not wait for two weeks. And so we have done that, both in Canada with a centralized banking system. And we’re doing it in the United States as well with a third-party partner that processes instantaneously. So that’s a big thing that is for the talent. The second last big thing we did for the talent is we pay them well. So, we’re a virtual company, I don’t have a head office, we’ve got addresses, but they’re all Regis workspace. So by design, we are keeping our fixed overheads at a minimum, on average, two-thirds of every dollar that our clients give us is what is paid to the brand ambassador. In most agencies, it’s 50% 40% 30% of the budget is what goes to the talent in our world, it’s 60 to 70% of the budget. So they get paid well, they get paid quickly, and they get great brands to put on their resume. And that’s the marketplace that we’ve created.
Jeremy Weisz 44:10
It’s two-sided marketplaces are difficult, right? Because there’s two sides. How do you get partners and brands on and who are good partners that should be on here that aren’t?
Kevin Delano 44:24
Yeah, that’s great. I mean, we’ve got two sides of the business. And I call it it’s always two levers, you need enough talent, to fulfill all the client needs. And if you have too much talent, they’re not going to be working as much they’re going to lose faith in your app, then you had to have enough clients. So on the client side, you need enough talent to fulfill them. If you have too many clients and not enough talent. That’s a problem. Too much talent, not enough clients. That’s a problem on this side. So it’s a delicate balance. It’s something that we are challenged with every day. We’ve got two groups of people leading those areas. So on the talent side, there’s a whole engine around that and then on the client side, we’ve got our sales group in our client experience group that focuses on that. The types of clients we go after Fortune 1000, organizations that spend brand dollars. So consumer packaged goods, automotive, financial, athletics, sports and entertainment and the big category. Alcohol is massive cannabis and legalized states huge. And so you can, if you saw my client roster, which I’ve got a few there on my website. But I’ve got another slide, I can send you afterwards, Jeremy, if you want. Very impressive client list. And we are very focused on looking at the categories that are growing where they’re investing, we’ve got a little area in our group for new starts. So if you’re a brand new company, and you just need a one-hit wonder, and you just got a new listing at a retailer or something like that, we will also help you. So we go as small as working a one-four-hour shift up to multimillion-dollar projects.
Jeremy Weisz 45:59
I’m wondering who are good partners for you, I always think of partnerships who are good partners for you in the US. I mean, I think of like trade shows, I think of like Costco, like stores, they’re always doing some kind of demo with brands, who are good partners for you that should know about Karma Casting.
Kevin Delano 46:20
Yeah, I mean, there’s really two avenues there agencies. So it’s a growing area, but agencies are struggling to find the people that we can find. And why is that? The gig workers want to work on technology, they’re glued to their phones, and so they’re loving working in our environment. So agencies, and that can be advertising agencies who want to get into experiential marketing, that’s public relations agencies who are now doing experiential marketing, and certainly experiential marketing agencies. And there’s lots of them that need to find staff. So that’s a big category for us. The other one is really, call it the Fortune 1000 organizations. And I’m just looking at my logo list here. You pick the category, automotive transportation, so, we got airlines and automotive companies, automotive companies do a lot of road shows, they do a lot of trade shows, they do consumer tests, all that CPG, consumer packaged goods, you name it, from soda companies to Chip companies to cookies, you name it, they’re all doing stuff. Beverage, alcohol is massive, so whether that’s a wine and spirits company, a beer company, we represent most of them in Canada, we’ve got a few of them in the United States, we’re doing quite a bit on the Eastern Seaboard, finance. So banks, credit cards, big category, athletics, if you just saw that WNBA promotion and launch in Las Vegas, all the people working there were for Karma. If you saw that Kobe Bryant big promotion, the black mamba thing that happened two weeks in LA, all those folks were working for Karma. So we’ve got some good things. We’re doing a lot of stuff in New York right now with Nike. So athletics is a big category, electronics. So our big customers there, Microsoft, Hewlett Packard, Google, Samsung, those types of organizations. The list goes on.
Jeremy Weisz 48:08
I love it. No, Kevin, I just want to be the first one. Thank you for sharing your journey, your expertise. I mean, there’s so much to dig into on all of these businesses. So I know we just scratched the surface, but it’s super valuable. I want to encourage everyone to check out karmacasting.com and Kevin is somebody the first one to thank you. Thank you so much.
Kevin Delano 48:29
Oh, my pleasure. It’s been a real treat to talk with Jeremy and thank you.
