Jeremy Weisz
the formula. Everyone else you gentlemen about what’s the silver bullet? Right, the silver bullet for, you know, disputes in this. So what how do you answer that? Because I’m sure you get that a lot. Yeah.
John Munro
So we get the question a lot of, you know, some people are coming to the process, I’ll have to start with, you know, disputes are a result of e-commerce success. So as you go through and you actually kind of expand your e-commerce footprint, you know, you start doing more card not present transactions. Obviously, during COVID. We’ve seen just an absolute incredible increase in in e commerce transactions and digital goods overall. And, you know, so So, as you’re going through that process, you’re trying to deal with fulfillment, you’re excited because all these orders are come in and you probably can’t deal with them. This this during the time is too much demand and other things that are really impacting you, and not to later do you identify the fact that while we haven’t met problem we have is a weed that’s growing up on our garden. These disputes these chargebacks. And these chargebacks actually are creating an environment that makes us not realize that we’re actually not having as much revenue come in from from this growth as we expected. And it can actually become such a problem where Visa or MasterCard are the major networks will actually shut off these merchants. So in those scenarios that you get at high risk, a lot of organizations have never been in those high risk scenarios, but we see dispute rates doubling tripling quadrupling, during these times, when it’s putting a lot of organizations that never really had to deal with this in a bad spot. As a result, they sometimes come in and say, Hey, what’s the silver bullet, there’s got to be something I can just pay for and make this go away. And there are solutions that help with the process. But really, it’s a holistic approach. You have to approach dispute management holistically. You have to approach it from the way that you’re actually interacting with your customers and you know, doing your customer engagement, you have to approach it from your the way that your payments are actually being processed and coming through way your refund rate Return policies are being managed. All of those things oftentimes, and there’s many other you know, factors in that can oftentimes impacts the dispute rate that you have, as well as if you’ve dealt with it. If you haven’t dealt with it, it’s like the weeds in the garden, they’re just going to go crazy, they’re going to go ramp and they’re going to take over before you know it, because you’re not pulling the weeds as they, you know, stick their heads above ground or as they’re babies, you wait till they’re large and out of control, and then it’s a starfish all that stabs you every time you try to touch it. Right.
Jeremy Weisz
So what are some of the reasons for chargebacks? And we can talk about what you recommend people doing?
John Munro
Absolutely. So there’s a couple different categories. You know, there’s a huge investment in the fraud sector. Really, it started probably 10 years ago, and their goal was to get rid of disputes. They said, Hey, we’re gonna be able to get rid of disputes. What they forgot to mention is a disputes or hypercritical general an asset or a benefit that card holders expect if they didn’t have that protection in place. If they didn’t know that they were going to be protected if a consumer if a as a consumer they actually purchased To good or service and it wasn’t as described was never delivered to them, they didn’t get what they were promised, if they didn’t have that protection to be able to use that card network to say I need to dispute this transaction, you’d have a much, much lower rate of acceptance for using credit cards. And so it’s a hyper critical thing that will never go away. But a lot of people put it into the category of Oh, we’re trying to stop fraud. So my credit card was stolen, somebody used it nefariously, etc. Or we’re trying to stop account takeover where somebody logs into my account and utilizes you know, their their ability with that account to actually purchase things. But what they don’t realize is almost 65% of the problem is actually what we call friendly fraud. And friendly fraud is broken into a couple of categories. If you know you don’t recognize a purchase that your spouse made, right, you don’t recognize a purchase that your child made. You see that on your on your on your account, you’re typically not going to go to that job description that has a one 800 number to find out what it was I actually called Exactly. Your bank and you’re gonna you Gonna go through that process, you know, and so yeah, you know, there’s a lot of that occurs and actually a much higher percentage than people expect. And then there, of course, are consumer disputes, especially during COVID. Was I promised that I’d be able to get my money back, you know, was there a refund policy in place that allowed that that protected me that I expect to be able to leverage now? And now I can? How do you deal with that process? Well, I have a better relationship, my credit card company, with my chase or somebody else along those lines that I necessarily do with this particular merchant that I’m working with. So there’s a lot of customer experience challenges within that within that ecosystem as well.
Jeremy Weisz
So the friendly fraud, and then the so that’s where they charge back, but they actually made the purchase, they just didn’t realize someone,
John Munro
they either didn’t realize they made the purchase, or they are trying to actually do what’s called chargeback fraud, which is, you know, consumer claiming that they didn’t get it. Unfortunately, there’s a lot of that now for some of these larger online retailers because, you know, somebody bought that exercise equipment from Dick’s Sporting Goods, right. And all of a sudden they lost their jobs Two weeks later, well They didn’t know they were gonna get a raise from the federal government, which was kind. But before that, you know, then they decided, oh, gosh, I just can’t afford this anymore. And it’s a terrible story in a terrible scenario. But they did purchase that good. Dick’s Sporting Goods delivered what they said that they, they should, you know, they have the treadmill, they’ve been using it for a couple of weeks, and now they’re trying to not just return it, they’re actually trying to dispute the transaction. So scenarios like that, that can occur that really, you know, puts a lot of these online merchants kind of in a in a precarious place, and how do they, you know, preserve that, that that cardholder or that that buyer as a future customer, right, because oftentimes they do want to preserve it, they just are trying to get through that in a scenario where somebody is abusing the system.
Jeremy Weisz
So someone comes to you. Is it the scenario or they’re just experiencing a high high volume of this or what what companies come to you what’s the biggest issue they’re experiencing?
Unknown Speaker
Also? Yeah, so there’s some thresholds that they have to manage. So I agree I mentioned a little bit earlier that, you know, if you have too high of a dispute rate, you can actually get your ability to process credit cards removed, right. VSA will shut you off, they’ll start by finding you and kind of put you in a bad category, but they’ll actually shut you off. So for our lot of merchants, they don’t want to get anywhere near that risk point. But oftentimes, what we find is that they’ll come to us and they’ll say, Hey, I’m getting close to the 1% threshold that’s been established with visa, I want to stay away from that, or, you know, point eight or something along those lines, I want to stay away from that, what can I do. And so we have three or four different solutions that we can actually apply to them. Some, as you mentioned, that don’t require integrations that are just automated and, and create some auto responses to take down the dispute rates, some ability to actually refund some transactions and make it that and then there’s also the ability really to provide a better dispute response process. And, you know, to assist from that, from that standpoint, and the ancillary benefits, which are sometimes even more powerful, is we create for these merchants an ability to create a better customer experience. Can you imagine if you look at that weird, you know, you see those little 10 digit descriptors that says, you know, what’s this XYZ, and you have no idea what that is, right? You get onto your, onto your online statements, or you jump onto the web or mobile, and you see this information. You don’t know what that is. So you recall that issuing bank, can you say, Hey, what is this information, they might be able to provide you with more information, but oftentimes, they can just say, hey, it looks like there’s a 101 800 number here call it in our scenario and our merchants, we actually provide a whole bunch of additional information that would show that Jeremy lies at Rise25.com, you know, made the purchase on this date at this time, he was the product, oh, come to find out, it’s actually an Xbox game, and your son bought it from their account. And you see that on there. And you know, you pride for buy that back. So it just creates a much, much better feedback loop for the consumer and creates a much better customer experience. So they actually get increases in customers as a result of this being part of the process. And then I’d say that the last time Kind of ancillary benefits, we actually have the ability to increase acceptance. So the number of transactions they can accept, and they can identify as not being fraud, because many of these transactions are mislabeled as fraud, even though it was these consumer disputes or friendly fraud or something else.
Jeremy Weisz
Hmm. What are some industries that are high risk? Are there any issues you don’t touch? Or that you consider really high risk?
John Munro
Yeah, absolutely. There’s tons of industries that we don’t touch, you know, internally, we kind of refer to them as a sin industries, not to say that they’re bad or that you shouldn’t be, you know, a part of them or process but, but we typically avoid the higher risk industries. So the industry as a whole that we came from, or that was built out of chargebacks really focused on those high risk merchants, because they were the ones at risk of getting shut off. They were the ones that are at risk of losing the most money. With that said they were they were organizations that oftentimes were turning over every year, you’d see a different shell company pop up, and it really wasn’t something that we were excited to deal with and support. So as a result, we really focus on the low risk to kind of mid risk scenarios. So you have an organization that is just kind of dwindling, they’re having high growth, and they’re, they’re seeing a ton of e commerce growth, but they just are kind of bumping up against the threshold, right? So we’re not talking about people that are three or four or five times the thresholds that are acceptable to Visa or MasterCard, we’re really focusing on those other merchants, those large some of the large enterprises, the mid markets, you know, folks that are still high growth, right, so you can still see a ton of subscription revenue style companies that we support. And there’s a lot of those that are just experiencing high growth and there’s just a lot of churn associated with those products and services generally, but we can actually support a lot of those a great subscription example is, if you have we’ll use Netflix as an example they’re not quoted. They’re not they’re not ours, but if you use them as a great one, if you’re
Jeremy Weisz
listening, you should go to chargeback.com
Unknown Speaker
You go on to dispute a transaction, you know with Netflix, right? Wouldn’t that be great? If the user information came back and said, Oh, this person has actually, you know, logged in 12 times in the last, you know, three months, and actually they lost 123 hours last month. So when they when that person uses the the Chargeback process, it looks pretty bad, tries to go into it. They’re like, Oh, I haven’t used it for six months, I tried to cancel it. But actually, it shows your user account less somebody else is using it, you know, you watched 136 hours of Game of Thrones last week, right? It doesn’t, doesn’t doesn’t does show very well for you. So those types, there’s, there’s that type of, you know, communication, again, gonna happen the process, but that’s a great example of that is not a high risk organization. That’s one that is a legitimate business that is really kind of driving that process forward. And again, I’m not trying to cast any shade on any of these organizations that are phenomenal organizations that are higher risk, but that’s just not our
Jeremy Weisz
I’m just saying like even a high risk, I would imagine it would be like hotel and travel because that’s probably a high risk is not me. I don’t know would that be In the sin, like category
John Munro
They are not in the same category.
Jeremy Weisz
They’re they’re the really high risk
John Munro
hotel room, but not for us. Yeah, those are just higher risk organizations. So we absolutely support those. And, you know, can can can support the hotels and certainly the travel but but you have to remember that those were they have higher dispute rates, but they oftentimes still are not actually hovering above those thresholds, they’re still usually able to stay within the industry established specials. They’re going to be closer to the top so they care more right up front, but but, you know, there’s still not a two or three or 4% dispute rate accessible right now. So with like,
Jeremy Weisz
online like marijuana, I don’t even you can buy like medical marijuana online or something, what would be considered one of the high risk that like people wouldn’t touch?
John Munro
Yeah, so you typically have some of the kind of kind of kind of nutraceutical style organizations and again, there’s a lot of organic And support these groups very well. We have some some other competitors that I’m happy to refer folks to when they come to us and want support there. But yeah, nutraceuticals sometimes it’s, let’s say the porn or or, you know, some gambling sites, some other things like that, that we wouldn’t support. So there’s there’s other things along those lines that really fit in the high risk categories.
Jeremy Weisz
So I want to talk about some critical changes, because like we mentioned the beginning, John Strikeforce. So when you came in, what were some of the key changes you implemented or directions that you kind of put in place that helped?
John Munro
Yeah, so in many organizations, especially startups, you ask the question of when do you know that there’s, you know, a change that’s necessary, doesn’t necessarily mean mean when you know that you need to make a major change, but you start seeing things across the organization that kind of drive you in that direction. So from that standpoint, you know, one of the challenges for the organization is they have great ideas. They had wonderful customers, but they were trying to try to bite off more than they could chew. Right. They were making some incredible headway within the market, we’re doing a lot. But then delivery was starting to kind of wane, and they weren’t able to deliver quite as much as they wanted to. And again, you know, incredible team, I’ve been absolutely blessed in this role, because I have some amazing leaders amazing team that actually supporting me and you know, that I support on a daily basis, right. And so it’s been incredible to walk walk through that, but there really was some, your ability to say no, is oftentimes as strong as your ability to say yes to the things you say yes to, can get you a long ways. But if you’re not seeing a lot of knows along the way, and you’re not identify the things you’re not going to focus on, then then that can put you in a kind of risk scenario.
Jeremy Weisz
So early on, did the company take on some of the clients that you wouldn’t take on today? Do you feel like nutraceutical companies or things like that?
John Munro
Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. And we enforce Normally, when I joined the organization and some of my key leaders that are with me now, we actually went through and we helped some, some, you know, great merchants that we just weren’t going to be right to support and help them onboard to other organizations that could support them better. So, and again, it’s not always just straight send industries, there’s a lot of organizations that really just want that magic bullet set and forget, they don’t really want to deal with the process. And that’s great. And we have some great solutions for those folks as well. But sometimes, you know, when it’s just too much to be
Jeremy Weisz
said again, it’s got to be a fit like not mean sort of, like a cultural fit because like, if you’re saying, well, there’s no magic bullet and they’re expecting a magic bullet, then there’s gonna be an issue on both sides.
John Munro
Absolutely. Yeah. We’re not gonna be able to live up to their expectations and and they’re probably not going to be the partner that we need to make both
Jeremy Weisz
parties successful. Are there certain questions are things this is I love this topic by the way, john, you know, other certain questions or things you Have your process to make sure that you filter out those clients that are going to be a bad fit, like what are some of the ways because sometimes it’s easy to tell, and sometimes it kind of gets in that gray area? Well, we take it, we may see an issue five or six months from now, what do we do? So what are some of the ways you filter out? clients?
John Munro
Yeah, so a lot of this is based on workflow, you know, we have some very simple questions that we ask around, you know, what are you intending to refund? Do you want to refund every single dispute that comes in? Do you not want to refund every single dispute? You know, sometimes, and of course, we don’t share too much of this of our of our magic sauce that makes us effective. But sometimes when somebody says, I want a refund all no matter what, what that tells us is the fact that they’re not actually trying to address the dispute process. They’re not trying to improve, you know, how they’re delivering their services. They’re not trying to improve their, for example, return policies or refund policies, you know, that might impact these. They don’t necessarily care about, you know, having those Customers come back to them, they really just want the problem to go away. And so there’s things along those lines that we can ask that, that, you know, put somebody in particular categories, we can also ask for dispute rates, you know, if they are at a four or 5% dispute rate, they’re probably not a customer for that, that we’re going to be able to support. And again, to your point, you know, we’re not going to provide the solutions and frankly, don’t want to in a lot of areas we have the ability to, but we actually don’t want to, you know, cater to those to those organizations, because it doesn’t help us grow, doesn’t help are the really strong Automation features that we have in some of the the kind of machine intelligence that’s in place that we continue to grow. It doesn’t actually, you know, help that process. It doesn’t educate us more, it doesn’t help us to, you know, improve the win rates that we have on the disputes that we do respond to, doesn’t help us to increase the deflections that we can have before anybody you know, toward even just becomes a dispute. When you’re asking those questions of your your issuing bank. With the cardholder is we want to be able to add more value in that process which actually decreases that overall. So some of the things along those lines.
Jeremy Weisz
John, how did you find chargeback? or How did they find? Yeah,
John Munro
so I’m, I actually love working with people. I disguise my entire career of kind of machine learning and automating processes of, I just love people I love interacting with working with people. And I’ve worked on a couple of remote teams in Silicon Valley and some other areas. And as a leader, especially if you’re the only leader who’s remote, it can be really kind of disenchanting sometimes and becomes difficult. And a lot of organizations are incredible at remote but there’s also a ton that, you know, that really worked through that. So I just wanted to work with the windows team that was a little bit more local. And as I was making a transition my career a little bit and I’ve been I was in legal for 17 years, and so I was excited to apply that to some Additional areas, and chargeback was really a great fit. You know, there, as I think you were alluding to up front, you know, they have in 2016 really decided to make a change. They were actually proud part of the managed services, you know, historical folks and other competitors that we still see out there. And as a result of that process of changing to a SaaS application and really deciding that this could be delivered through an automated solution, instead of just full, you know, kind of full service managed services. Then they were going through a transition it’s one that I’ve done multiple times with multiple organizations.
Jeremy Weisz
Talk about culture for a second you mentioned this when you have someone come in especially in the executive level, what are some you know, things you’ve seen across this and other organizations of how someone can go in and maybe assess their culture and even improve their culture? What What have you seen works?
John Munro
So I’ll say number one, it takes commitment, right. I myself feel like I’m failing many days in a week, I feel like I’m putting in the efforts and getting a lot of great outcomes. But I’m just not addressing it from the or, you know, attacking the problem from the from the right angle, I might not be doing it with enough empathy, I might not be doing it with with enough, you know, kind of love for that, that individual in what they’re doing. With that seven, you also have to very much identify folks that just are not stoked to be there, you know, if they’re not excited if they’re not, if they have a different end outcome for for where you’re going as an organization or where that is, and sometimes that’s not clearly defined, you know, feels like their outcome is is aligned with you, but then you find out well, you know, they want to do that but they have these other four or five criteria that they apply in this scenario. So it’s really trying to try to work through and identify, you know, why people are motivated to be there and inspired to be there. And and if I said that, I get it all right, and I do it all right, I would be totally inaccurate and misleading. But But I think that that kind of focus on empathy really gets you a long ways, and allows you to get to a position where you can start having the conversations, if the party is willing to be able to, you know, identify some of the things that are holding them back, identify some of those, you know, baseline assumptions that they’re making about you that they’re making about the organization they’re making about themselves, that are actually impacting their ability to have the outcomes that they want. So really focusing on the people and doing that, but it takes a lot of vulnerability. You know, there’s a lot of trust that is built and broken throughout organizations, and you might have phenomenal trust somebody for six months, and then all of a sudden, it breaks. And sometimes you don’t know, it’s broken until, you know, much later. Again, back to kind of our lagging indicator scenarios. And so once you identify those, you know, really being able to go back and, and, you know, create enough trust again, to be able to, you know, rebuild a relationship and I think that’s kind of culture overall. You know, you can’t have you can’t have the ability to employ and, you know, and build and sustain great teams, and without having a great organization. But But you also can’t have a great organization without having great teams. So they’re very much an ecosystem that has to drive off of each other. And I’ve typically found that the more you focus on employees and and creating the right environment for them, that they will bring, you know, bring the outcomes that you’re hoping for, and excited for and drives everything forward. But that’s not always, always true. Once in a while, it’s a, you know, you have constraints as an organization, especially as a VC backed organization. You know, we raise money through COVID, with some phenomenal, phenomenal investors, including, you know, forefront and some of the other leading fin top folks. And as a result, as a result, if we hadn’t raised that it would have been much different story, right? We wouldn’t have had the ability to necessary, necessarily keep operating where we are and growing the way that we’ve been growing and thriving. So it’s just you Kind of a very different dynamic all the time.
Jeremy Weisz
Yeah. JOHN, you mentioned two things, which I want to hit on. You mentioned empathy and vulnerability, which are huge. I remember listening to and having the person the author of Never Split The Difference in what I when I went into, listen, read that book. I was, I mean, hostage negotiation. Anyone who hasn’t checked it out, check it out. It’s FBA, Hotz hostage negotiator, and how he basically gets hostages back from terrorists. And so and his main thing, which was the least last thing from my mind, was he talks about empathy, you know, in the process, and actually, that’s how he conducts the negotiation with empathy. And so I thought it was really interesting. I’m curious, are there any resources or books that you look at or recommend for maybe leadership or culture along these lines, anyone that you’ve read or listened to or you recommend for people?
John Munro
Oh, man, I’d say I absolutely love, you know, Bernie Brown and some of her work, you know, on vulnerability and empathy. You know, you find it in the oddest places somebody might not be either willing to or aware enough that they’re actually talking about love and empathy. But But you oftentimes find those themes throughout. So, you know, any sort of core leadership book that can take you through that, but, you know, even Lencioni and some of his other folks, you can really find some great resources in there that that, you know, take you into the category of empathy can sometimes look like, you know, being a being a tough leader, right? And really holding somebody accountable. It’s not always just, I’m empathetic, that you have a, you know, scenario that you’re dealing with or that, you know, I see how this scenario would have would be impacting you. But the most difficult balance you find as a leader is when to say, I want to be empathetic for your situation, but, but, you know, we have To find the end to that, right, we can’t find a leader asked me recently that was kind of asking about, you know, okay, well, when does the MPD end and I said, you know, when it doesn’t serve the organization, and you have to decide as your organization, you know how far that goes, right? It can’t go on forever, you know, and so if you don’t have enough visibility into pay, how long am I empathetic for that at home situation, personal situation, the struggles that you’re going through? That’s tough. Yeah. If you’re not communicating, then there’s no way to know. But, um, so I think there’s some of those, you know, communication things that can drive that as well. That’s tough.
Jeremy Weisz
Yeah. Um, John, I’ve two last questions. First of all, thank you. Thanks for sharing the journey and some of your advice and people should check out Chargeback.com. Great domain name. Thanks. Amazing domain name was that we’ll take it,
Unknown Speaker
we’ll take it. Yeah.
Jeremy Weisz
I always ask them to spread inside or what’s been a low moment maybe in the in the business realm. And on the flip side, what’s been a proud moment For you, what’s been like maybe a challenging point, or time period where you had to kind of push through certain things. First? Yeah.
John Munro
You know, culture is always tricky, you know, when you have personalities and historical times that you know, where people have biases that have been created based on the situation that they were historically in. And even if the situation changes, they’re still going to bring those biases to the new situation. So, you know, change, obviously, you know, in you know, human biology and psychology is really, you know, risk right. And so we naturally turn on our, you know, flight, fight, fly, flight or flee sort of scenarios across the board, when we see change, and so we can’t, you know, you you include change, with those biases that you’re naturally going to bring without even realizing it. And it creates a A major situation that you have to deal with them. And and I will say, you know, as an organization, the organization has been through a couple of, you know, major kind of changes across the board and who are we what are we, you know, we’re a man services company in our SAS organization. Okay, now we have, you know, one set of leadership now we have others. Now we have a original founding team, now we have some different leadership that is, and so there’s just so many of those things that can either positively impact or negatively impact an organization and people’s ability to navigate through that in a you know, in a way that moves everything forward moves them forward, you know, even realizing I there’s so many times where I’ll come into a situation with a bias and, and I get halfway through and I recognize or sometimes it’s all the way through and the damage is already done. And then I step back and I’m like, Why was I so frustrated? Oh gosh, that person was kicking off this particular fear in me or this I will just share that low and high point. also raising funds during COVID had absolutely every emotion all during the same time. You know, we went through a couple of weeks when we’re about three weeks into our fundraise four weeks into our fundraise, and really starting to get some some significant interest. And within about a week and a half timeframe, more than half of the folks that were kind of vetting us and due diligence and going through dropped out quickly. It was it was kind of an overnight, it’s like Bang, bang, bang, bang, they were all hitting at the same time. And I’ll tell you that that was some, you know, we started some scenario planning, we started some other things saying, okay, there’s a really good chance that this happens across the board. And luckily, you know, what has happened with COVID has leaned into us, you know, we’re, we’re going to be unfortunately for a lot of merchants, but we’re going to be really, really essential resources. We currently are, there’s more online purchases
Jeremy Weisz
than ever,
John Munro
right, exactly more online versus than ever, and more online purchases that are in uncontrolled environments or unstable environments. Right again, before and other things like that. And so we’ve been really blessed and really lucky to be in the position that we are right now. And, you know, be able to navigate through that. But there were a lot of downtimes during that fundraising process. And I will say coming out the other side, you know, joyous moment when we actually fundraise. But but it was so long in the coming and there have been so many emotional moments in the middle, that it almost wasn’t a we almost couldn’t celebrate when we came out the other side, because it was so much of it. Okay, exhausting. We’ve had enough time. It’s exhausting. We’re done. Let’s go. And so it’s really both of those are really special times for the organization. But I will say if I transition that to the proudest pieces, I am I am absolutely so proud and so feel so blessed every day to work with the team that I’ve had some founders that are just absolutely incredible, that I get the opportunity to work with and a leadership team that is incredible and all the way down the entire organization. We have some folks that you know, in other organizations Maybe wouldn’t get the respect to they get in ours. They’re hyper critical to our, you know, to our growth, they’re hyper critical to our strategy. They’re hyper critical to serving our customers on a daily basis, getting that happy customer list to kind of go through the roof like we’ve been able to over the last year. And and that’s probably a big thing. You know, year ago, we asked the question, oh, hey, you know, let’s, let’s look at the list of happy customers that we can quote, the sales team was asking for that. And we said, Oh, well, kind of these guys, kind of these guys. And within a year, we’ve, we’ve totally flipped on its head, more than 50% of our customers are our quotable referenceable. And there and that seems like a small number. That’s just
Jeremy Weisz
it’s a tough industry. I mean, you’re dealing with disputes, and that’s what you deal with.
John Munro
Right? And sometimes people don’t even want to get in and want to share the fact that they’re using Chargeback, right. Yeah, some of the biggest brands that I’m sure you now and you work with, and they’ve, you know, contractually obligated us not to share. Yeah, we can’t even talk
Jeremy Weisz
I would. I would argue though, if you take it that seriously, that’s something to be proud of too. Right. If you’re like, we take Seriously, we want the best customer experience. I mean, I could see, I mean, maybe maybe they have a different mind mindset around that.
John Munro
So and you’re right, we’ve seen a huge change in that where it was kind of a negative. We’re fighting against our card holders. That was the mentality historically for chargebacks. And we’re changing that to know we’re supporting our card holders, we’re supporting our consumers. We’re creating a better customer experience overall, from better communication, even in the dispute channels, to making it do feel a lot less like litigation, and it feels a lot more like collaboration. Yeah.
Jeremy Weisz
I want to thank you, John. totally appreciate everyone, check out Chargeback.com and check it out. Thank you.
John Munro
Thanks so much, Jeremy. Appreciate the time.
