Dr. Jeremy Weisz 17:22
Yeah, it sounds pretty amazing. So you decide, okay, I’m going to start my own thing. Right. So that initial talk about maybe getting the first client.
Jamie Read 17:36
Okay, so when I left, Edelman left, you know, left on good terms and everything. My first client was actually Edelman. And it’s probably important to clarify, like in Singapore, it’s so easy there. The government runs so efficiently. Everything runs efficiently.
And so you could start a business with $50 in an hour and it’s that easy. You walk, you know you can do it online. And so I started Brite, which is like Jamie’s consulting business. And so I was going to try freelancing and be a freelance consultant mostly focused on brand. And I think I was on a beach in Thailand when I had an old client reach out to me.
They’re called Safra, like the world’s largest yeast manufacturer. So pretty much every loaf of bread you eat has yeast in it. And they asked me if I could help them launch a baking solution to Japanese bakers in Japan. While I was sitting on a beach in Thailand and the. And I’m with my wife and kids too, and we’re all moving back to Canada slowly.
And so I said, of course, I always say, you know, yes. Is my default answer to a lot of crazy questions. And so I realized I had to find some people to help me do this. And so I reached out to some people I’d worked with in agencies previously, some people that I was just connected to in Japan. I ended up pulling together a team.
I had a creative director, PR expert, a couple designers, an event specialist, because we were launching it at a trade show and we built, you know, this great campaign. And it didn’t surprise me that the client was happy with the work. Like — it was one of the more successful launches they had done in Asia in a long time. What actually surprised me was the feedback I got from the other consultants, and this is where the BriteBirch Collective idea started to come into my mind was they kind of were giving me feedback like, hey Jamie, this is the first time I’ve been freelancing for ten years, and this is the first time that I felt like I was back in an agency. Or Jamie, this is the first time I got to work with people that were outside of my area of expertise.
Not in a way where it’s like the creative director would create a creative, you know, direction and then hand it over to the client and never see how it gets executed. Or the PR person would always be brought in at the very end to make something famous. But they didn’t get to be part of the strategy from the beginning. And so I was doing what I had always done in agencies, was bringing all the right people around the table for the client and working collaboratively to deliver a solution that was bespoke to the need, but it was never bigger, you know, the team was never bloated, it was never bigger than it needed to be, and it was never smaller than it needed to be. It was right-sized, and the feedback I got from the consultants also made me realize that, you know, freelancing is lonely.
It’s hard. It’s, you know, you’re often pigeonholed into an area. And it can be really rewarding to work for yourself, but at the same time, you miss the connections and working with creative people and people with different backgrounds that you can kind of start to let your own wheels turn and you start to, you know, working with a technologist gives you exposure to, you know, what he’s doing. And so now you’re a little smarter on AI and what’s happening. And so I think that’s kind of woke me up to this idea that, well, maybe BriteBirch doesn’t have to be just Jamie’s consulting business.
What if BriteBirch was a collective? What if the agency of the future was, you know, not a bricks and mortar type, you know, shareholder-led company, but instead was just, you know, a group of like-minded people who kind of came together with a shared passion to, you know, do great work, really. And so now together we can win awards that we wouldn’t be able to do on our own. Now we can do campaigns that are much more complex, multi-market, multi-disciplinary Campaigns that you would never be able to do if you were just working on your own. So that’s kind of, you know, by the time I made my way back to Canada, BriteBirch then had about 50 consultants around the world, and that was where it was kind of born, was on that beach in Thailand.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 21:44
I know you have a lot of talent that you’re working with on a daily and weekly basis. I’m curious what kind of software, what kind of tech stack do you use to communicate with them, with the client? What software do you like to use?
Jamie Read 22:01
Yeah, I mean, great question. It’s way lower-tech than I think it could be. I mean, there’s probably a lot of investment I could be making into some dedicated platforms, and I have looked at a lot of them. But it’s probably good to mention that, like, BriteBirch is bootstrapped, like it’s not. I don’t have any investment or anything like that.
So we’re trying to use what we can. And so yeah, we organize ourselves mostly on Slack at the moment in terms of how we coordinate around clients. We host, you know, webinars, and we’re using Zoom and stuff like that for a lot of, a lot of sort of more sharing of knowledge. But then we’ve got, you know, LinkedIn groups and we’ve got what else? You know, I think mostly I’m on all the G suite stuff.
So like we have pretty much our repository of knowledge is all locked within Google documents and folders and stuff like that. So everything is also, you know, because it’s really important to make sure that not everyone has access to everything, especially when it comes to client work. So we’re very good at kind of creating firewalls and allowing access only to certain aspects of business for the team members and things like that. So yeah, we’re using sort of existing tech, but I feel like there’s probably stuff out there that’s more purpose-built for what we’re trying to do. It’s just being able to, you know, make it right now. It’s working the way it. Yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 23:29
No, I mean, I know a lot of agencies that, you know, that use Slack for communication and it works really well. And I know we use it and just kind of have a channel per client and communicate there. Do you use any like project management software, like when you’re doing projects or releasing or assigning tasks?
Jamie Read 23:49
Yeah, we use Wrike. I had looked at a whole bunch of other ones we started with like Clickup, and then we moved over to Wrike. But to be honest, like the way that we sometimes organize ourselves around the clients, at first I thought that we would be putting a project manager. We call them a client architect centrally. I wanted to in-house that person.
I wanted to kind of make that person a Birch actually employee. And we tried a few times and it sort of hasn’t really worked out great. And what I’ve realized is like when we try to use outsourcing that role, everyone comes with their own sort of favorite tool. And so I’ve started to realize, like, maybe I don’t need to dictate one common platform. Maybe it’s like, you know, going to be dependent on what the clients using, what, you know, the whoever the client architect ends up being.
And, you know, we might have a preference to use Wrike, but we kind of go — we do it by opportunity. So it’s not consistent to be honest.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 24:54
Yeah. Yeah. We use Clickup. We went from Asana and then started using Clickup. And I’ve heard people using Wrike as well. I mean, they all probably depending on the use case or work. I’ve used Trello before, you know, I’ve had people like Monday, so there’s a bunch out there, but whatever.
Jamie Read 25:10
I still use a lot of spreadsheets, you know, like I still find sometimes just like a Google spreadsheet that you can share with people sometimes does the trick. So it doesn’t it doesn’t need to be. Sometimes there’s too much technology. We also use, you know, for a lot of our marketing and, you know, just new business and leads and stuff like that. We do use HubSpot and try to integrate as much of that as possible.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 25:35
But again, it’s sort of like a CRM.
Jamie Read 25:37
Yeah, yeah. As more of a CRM. But again, like, it’s got way more than I need in that. Right? For, for what I’m trying to do. So yeah, I mean technology.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 25:51
For a second. Yeah. Although it’s helpful I mean, you know, Slack, Zoom, G-suite, Wrike, HubSpot. Talk about the structure and what you’ve discovered. You said like initially because you have these really bespoke projects and you have you’re bringing in all this talent from different places.
What did you find worked and didn’t work? You mentioned the client architect you want. You ever have a client architect at the beginning? You want to bring him in-house. Now it seems like it’s better to have that person also as a contractor, what else worked or didn’t work from the structure? When you get a project in how you coordinate the structure.
Jamie Read 26:30
Yeah, that’s a great question. I mean, the philosophy around building teams has been something that I’ve been trying to really, I don’t know, observe myself while at the same time trying to learn from, you know, the most successful hockey and baseball teams and the, you know, trying to understand, like what, what the psychology of teams and leadership and things like that. Because you’re right. Like, there’s so many different personalities. The hardest part of any business is the human aspect of it.
People are messy animals, I like to say. And I think being able to pull people who are essentially the best at what they do or, you know, very top-shelf talents, there are egos involved. There are people that have sort of a way of doing things and trying to force them to fit within a team dynamic, especially when they’re kind of on their own and working for themselves quite a lot. Sometimes you kind of get these personality clashes, and I think that is one of the hardest parts. And we often get the question from clients, you know, well, how, you know, if you’re working with freelancers and everyone’s just an outsourced employee, essentially, how do you guarantee that people aren’t just going to like, you know, eff off and just kind of disappear on, on, on you and stuff?
And my answer to that is always like, you know, maybe you don’t understand how agencies work, but on the inside of an agency, I can tell you the turnover, the, you know, the fact that you have people on your account, they’re not there for very long. Like they’ll just keep churning. There’s all sorts of politics going on in the background that is really messy. Like what you see is really just this one account person. But behind the scenes, it’s not always so like sunny, like sunshine and rainbows.
So same, you know, with, with us I think because everyone is in, first of all, senior. They’ve been doing this for a while. They kind of know their stuff, and there’s a reason why I did that was not only so they do more up-value work, but it was also so I don’t have to hold hands with everybody too much. Right. And so the way that we organize ourselves is the client gives us a challenge, right?
A problem to solve. We identify and build sort of the team around the need. And so that usually requires me to kind of look through a database, identify the talents and the expertise. And sometimes it matters what markets. And if we’re trying to target, you know, a certain demographic, then maybe it makes sense to put someone from that demographic on the team.
Surprise. You know, like just what are the perspectives that we need to be successful. And once we organize that, then the scope gets sort of broken down into, okay, well what part of this can you handle as the say, you know, digital lead, right? And it’s like, well, I can do this and this and this, and this is how I would do it. And they build out a scope and a cost.
And then I take the scope and cost from all of the different pieces, put them together and build it into a more cohesive plan and a strategy where again, that client architect person then becomes the shepherd of the project, just making sure everyone’s doing what they said they would do and making sure holding everyone accountable to their aspects of the project. The only difference, really, from the way those people would be working on their own is that there’s an expectation that, you know, on a regular basis, we come together and we just let each other know what’s going on. Right. And like, how are we all working towards the same goal for the client. It’s not rocket science.
You know, I could make it more complex than that, but it’s really that easy. And the less I need to babysit and the less I need to kind of, you know, we don’t work hourly. You know, I don’t have any need to kind of do time sheets and stuff. Like, that’s not the kind of agency I want to run. You know, if you’re the digital expert and you say you can do this and this is how much that you want to be paid to do it, and you think you can do it within this time frame, then I will let you do it the way you see fit.
And you’re the expert. But I need you to make sure that you’re keeping us informed about what you’re doing, that you’re showing up to all the meetings, you know? So, like, there’s definitely, you know, a high bar in terms of the participation and engagement. And so we don’t, you know, I can guarantee you that personality plays a big role in making, you know, making it into BriteBirch Collective. We’re not an open sort of group.
It’s very much, you know, selected. And so a big aspect of that is like, hey, can you work with other people? Are you a lone wolf consultant, or are you someone who wants to collaborate and learn and grow and be part of a team? And more often than not, people you know, they want to be part of something bigger than they can be by themselves.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 31:11
No, it’s very interesting from the client standpoint. Jamie, who is the client architect, the one if the client needs a meeting with updates, are there usually multiple team members on those meetings, or is the client architect kind of just getting all the info and having those client meetings?
Jamie Read 31:30
It depends. So like different clients want different things. And again, so we organize ourselves around the need and what the client wants. If the client wants to have one throat to choke and like not understand, they don’t care how the sausage is made or you know, however that saying goes, then fine. Then the client architect is the face of the work.
They have a knowledge and understanding of, of both the client what the client wants to achieve, but also what the team is doing and what they need. And so that person needs to be a fairly like generalist. Because they need to understand they don’t. You don’t need to know everything to know about the marketing mix, but you need to know enough about digital and about PR and about, you know, to know that things are moving forward in the right ways. And ask the right questions. And so that it is a tough role to find especially I think they’re the last people that agencies are holding on to are those kind of generalists who are able to interface with the client but also understand how the work gets done.
So they’re not you know, we haven’t found a whole lot of those kinds of people that I can build into consistent client architects. I tend to play that role a lot, which is part of the challenge of my business personally, is just that I’m a bit of a bottleneck, you know, in terms of being able to scale. And I don’t think I’m particularly good at client engagement. And, you know, it’s maybe not my strength. So it’s definitely part of the reason why I wanted in-house.
That role too, is just to kind of maintain the quality and consistency because they are the ones that are interfacing with the client. So but yeah, I know in terms of the rest of the team, it’s, you know, if the client wants to hear directly from the digital lead or from the technology guy or from you know, we’ll definitely make sure that those people show up to the meetings when they need to.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 33:15
It’s super interesting. And you mentioned talent and culture. So I want to break those up for a second and talk about talent. What are some of the ways you’ve been able to attract talent and vet talent? Because like I was saying at the beginning, there’s over 300 marketing experts in people that you pull from.
So what are some ways that you’ve attracted talent and vetted that talent over the years?
Jamie Read 33:43
Yeah. Great question. I think I think the work does a big part of it. Right. You show you that first piece of work that we did with Le Safran in Japan.
You know, on the back of that, I had a lot of, you know, people talking and saying, hey, I heard you’re pulling people together. Like, could I be part of this? And again, like, I wasn’t. I didn’t want to just make it an open sort of collective. I wanted to make sure that it was selective in a way, but not so selective that, like people who are part of BriteBirch can’t go and be part of other collectives and do their own thing also. Right.
So it just means that you’re available should your, you know, should the client require your expertise when I, you know, come calling that hopefully you’re still interested to be part of something. Right. So we have redundancy within the talent framework. So for example, if I needed a creative director, I have a few in North America. I have a few in Asia, I have a few in Europe, I have a few in Latin America, and so on.
With the idea that, you know, if one person isn’t available to do this piece of work, then I have some backups and stuff like that. But no, generally the way that people are usually recommended to me is one of the main ways now that I’m growing the collective. And mind you, I’m not trying to grow it too much beyond 300 until I have enough, you know, until I’m able to feed everyone with business. It’s kind of there’s no point in me being 10,000 members. So.
So just trying to keep it tight in that respect. But yeah, no, everyone either I had worked with who have decided to have a career change or maybe they were laid off, or maybe they, you know, came highly recommended. They’ve been freelancing for a long time and people are like, oh, you should know this person, right? Sometimes the client will have an opportunity that is a little bit outside of a comfort zone. Or maybe we recognize there’s a perspective that we need around the table that we don’t have within BriteBirch.
And then I go proactively reach out to people, meet them, have a conversation, I vet them, get their, you know, look at their CVS and stuff and then invite them to be part of the, the, the business opportunity. But to do that, then they have to be a Brite board member because there’s a code of conduct they have to sign, And then we contract them as well. So it’s, you know, it’s all above board in terms of how we operate. We’re fully like we’re incorporated within Canada. We have, you know, insurance and all that stuff.
So we’re like a legitimate operation. I just don’t have any employees and I don’t have offices. And it’s just, you know, which was crazy to everybody until COVID hit. And then it was sort of like, oh, that makes so much sense, which is kind of, you know, it’s amazing how sometimes the world works like that.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 36:39
On the talent side, we’ll talk about fostering culture, but I know on the talent side, you’re working on something at the time when this comes out, it may be on, you know, kind of on the website, but talk about BriteBirch.
Jamie Read 36:52
Yeah. So as I was mentioning from a talent perspective, like we have, if everyone’s got a minimum of ten years’ experience and they’ve all been freelancing for multiple years, then, you know, because of that everyone skews a bit older, a bit more mature. And so when clients come asking for TikTok campaigns and things like that, you know, I’ve had a lot of saying, hey Jamie, can we have some new blood? Maybe some younger talents or some, especially as they too kind of want to scale their own operations, like having some, some younger talent would help to allow for that. It kind of opened my mind to what’s also happening in the workforce.
There’s so many layoffs right now. There’s so much more coming this year, I think, and a lot of people now who have been looking for jobs are finding that, you know, despite the fact that you’re seeing on LinkedIn, so many job opportunities, no one’s responding, no one’s getting back to you. It’s going into some black hole somewhere, and people need to pay their rent, and they need to be able to be successful working for themselves. And so a lot of them are turning to freelancing. But the data shows that if you’re not successful in the first year, then you’re going to be in a lot of trouble.
And as we were, you know, talking before. Freelancing isn’t just about, hey, I have a skill, I’m going to go just apply it to someone. It’s a small business. You’re running an entrepreneur. You’re being an entrepreneur. And so with that comes tax implications, legal implications. You need to register with your company with, I guess, some, you know, legal entity. You probably need a website. And you have to build out your brand and you have to market yourself. And so there’s these practicalities of being a freelancer that I think a lot of people take for granted when they first venture into working for themselves.
And we have all this inherent expertise and talent within BriteBirch. Right? These 300 experts who have been freelancing for a long time, and they’re quite successful and they build their career around it. So we want to now leverage and create a much more open community of freelancers and invite them to, you know, gain all of the things that that freelancers need to be successful, which is, you know, guidance and mentorship, access to training and, you know, honing your skills and identifying, you know, identifying your target market and helping you brand yourself and all of those things at the same time, networking and creating events and stuff like that. So BriteBirch is sort of like a spin-off of BriteBirch, which is meant to build out the ecosystem, identify top talents, and maybe give them some exposure to Brite work as well, build their portfolios, get them a leg up.
And so it’s going to be this, this sort of really great community that’s going to be much more open in terms of anyone can join, it’ll be free. There’ll be some sort of, you know, pay-for-play in terms of access to mentorship and access to some training and stuff like that. But generally we’re going to try to keep it as open and free as possible to just really make sure that this next influx of freelancers are able to be successful at what they do, because we’re definitely seeing in Canada, for example, productivity is down, entrepreneurship is down, the economy is down, jobs are down, but freelancing is up and it’s going up. So how can we help? That next generation of freelancers is kind of the impetus behind BriteBirch.
So anyone listening I invite you to check it out and we’ll be on the BriteBirch’s website. We’ll have a link pretty soon anyway. But yeah, you can also find us.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 40:45
In the notes. So if you’re looking at the post it’ll be in there. So check it out and it’s free. So that’s awesome. You know I want to talk about culture for a second. And you’ve been in a lot of organizations. What are some of the things that you’ve gleaned, whether it’s from the big agencies or that you do now, that helps foster a good culture?
Jamie Read 41:12
Yeah. Well, I want to preface the answer by saying that I don’t think I’m very good at the culture part of BriteBirch, to be honest. Maybe some other people might disagree, but it’s the hardest part of running my agency model is keeping everyone engaged and keeping everyone in the loop and keeping everything like it’s a full-time job just to kind of, you know, keep everyone abreast of what’s going on, especially if I don’t have enough work to keep 300 people, you know, fed, then there’s a chance that, you know, you might have a very specific niche in what you do, sitting somewhere very far away from where I am. You’re not top of mind. A client job comes in right now.
I’ve been focusing on being in North America. I’ve been focusing on new business, mostly on North America, you know. But so how do I keep someone engaged who’s sitting in Bulgaria or sitting in, you know, and so we have members all around the world that, you know, unfortunately, probably feel a little bit disjointed from the collective. And a lot of that just has to do with my capacity and being able to keep everyone abreast of what’s going on. And so I do need to do better.
It’s one of my resolutions for 2025 is to kind of be a better communicator to the rest of our collective and keep everyone informed. I think BriteBirch is going to be a big part of that.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 42:27
Sounds like it will inherently do that, in a sense.
Jamie Read 42:34
And that’s really the part of the reason too, is just to kind of, you know, make it more inclusive for everybody to be involved. And, there’s an opportunity for BriteBirch members and their expertise to, to offer services through, you know, BriteBirch to their, you know, to this next generation of freelancers. So yeah, I think it will help spur some new engagement within our community. But no. And to answer your question about what I’ve seen in the past, that makes agencies successful from a cultural standpoint.
It’s a few things. With TBWA, it was my first exposure to an agency that has a methodology, right. And so TBWA, if you don’t know, is all about disruption. They’re the ones that disrupted, you know, the Sony Walkman to create the Apple iPhone or the Apple iPod at the time and stuff like that. And so disruption being this methodology where you kind of look at all the conventions in the industry and then you purposely try to break them and grow the pie instead of trying to take a slice of the pie.
And so, you know, because of disruption, everyone that is part of that agency goes through some training, has similar language to speak, has similar ways of showing up to the client that are consistent. Right. So that whether it’s me or my colleague, we’re kind of showing up in the same way. When I moved to Edelman, they didn’t have so much of that type of methodology. They did.
But they, you know, different, different groups within Edelman had that. But what Edelman had that I really loved was the fact that it’s a family-run company that really pushed that as part of their culture and their ethos, particularly around having some having your having agency within the agency to be able to do, be an entrepreneur. And so they really promoted entrepreneurship within Edelman and being creative. Richard Edelman would personally like approve projects for really interesting. Like when I first joined Edelman, I found out that there was someone who had put up her hand and said, hey, I want to create a video documentary series.
That’s also a research project that we can use to show clients that we can create content and do research. And he’s like, sure, here’s a bunch of money. Go do it. And she just traveled around Asia for a year doing that. I was like, wow, this company is awesome. I want to do something like that. So I think those are the kinds of things where it’s a little bit hard to reproduce those. But I mean, the TBWA example created something called a perspective mapping exercise-like thing. So when we talk about perspective and being diverse within BriteBirch’s, the whole point of that diversity is to provide more perspective to clients. But having perspective, identifying perspective, taking perspective, those are skills that you actually have to consciously think and put yourself in other people’s shoes.
And so I’ve created some IP and some tools that help clients do that. And so I am trying to get make sure all of our BriteBirch’s members are smart on that, so that when they talk to clients that we’re all speaking the same language and doing that sort of thing, and then the agency, you know, giving them the ability to work the way they want to work and do the work, that they know how they want to do it. That already kind of exists within the model. So I am taking a little bit of what I’m learning from other agencies. But like I said, it’s the hardest part of this business.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 46:06
Jamie, I have one last question. I know we only have a few minutes left, but I did want to hit on, you know, let me. I’m going to pull up your site here. So we’re on britebirch.com on the work section. I just briefly in a few minutes, talk about LG for a second and a few of the interesting points there.
Jamie Read 46:29
Yeah, sure. So when we were working, I was introduced to LG through a Canadian AI company called element AI that no longer exists. But they had done this big piece of research for LG. LG had recognized that I was coming. They were starting to wanting to put it into refrigerators and robot vacuums and things like that. And so I had done this, this big piece of research. But they didn’t know what to do with it. They didn’t know how to like. It was just very technical. And it was very heavy, heavy document.
So what we ended up doing was, first of all, we helped them develop it into a framework. And what I mean by that is if you think about the automotive industry and the self-driving cars, they have a very clear way of talking about level one, level two, level three, and what that level three self-driving means. You know that the car can drive on its own, hands-free, but you still need to have someone in the car. Level five is like when it’s going to be completely on its own. So the industry had a way of talking about AI and its advancements that gave developers, consumers, everyone sort of an idea, but that didn’t exist in consumer tech.
And so you could buy an electric toothbrush that says, hey, it’s got AI in it, right? At the same time, it doesn’t really do anything, or it has no AI in it. Or on the flip side, like people are starting to invite Google and Siri into their homes. They don’t. They don’t know that.
Like, you know, you’re basically your house is becoming a laboratory for these companies who are taking your data. And. And so the whole point of the work that we did was then to take all this research and say, hey, let’s create a framework for consumer industry to help consumers understand what it means. When you say level one, AI, level two, things like that. And so it’s funny because we did this five years ago and we launched at CES.
And I think CES is on right now as we’re recording this. But you know, it was way ahead of its time because now that we’re seeing with ChatGPT and we’re seeing how the issues that a lot of consumer products are having when it comes to claiming AI, but also some of them actually putting really robust systems into their devices. Consumers just aren’t smart on it. And so there’s a lot more fraud. There’s a lot more data breaching.
There’s a lot more, you know, negative effects of all this and it’s only going to get worse. This framework is something that like I’ve just been I’ve been starting to pull it out of the closet and be like, hey guys, we like we should all just kind of refocus on this because the industry needs it. And so that was a really cool project because it just exposed me to so much about AI. I interviewed personally, I interviewed some of the biggest names in AI, in AI, in robotics, in, you know, digital research and also employment, because we knew that there was going to be big issues coming down the line in terms of how people were going to use AI agents in their jobs and stuff like that. And so it was all, it’s really cool I the whole point of it was to create sort of what we called artificial intelligence experience, sort of like UX when you’re building an experience for a web interface.
But this is AI. So it’s about how do you build AI systems for consumers thinking about them from the beginning of the. Instead of at the end, so that they can be part of the development of. And be purpose-built. So it was a really cool project. We had people from all over the world working on that. The client was based in Korea. I was in Canada. We had people in Singapore and in Bulgaria and everything. So it was really a cool project, that one.
Dr. Jeremy Weisz 50:09
Jamie, first of all, thank you. Thanks for sharing your journey, your knowledge, your lessons. This has been really very interesting. Everyone check out britebirch.com and more episodes of the podcast and we’ll see everyone next time. Jamie, thanks so much.
Jamie Read 50:24
Thanks so much.
