Elie Wurtman

I was you know, Craig lived here, he moved back to the US. And he called me up he said, Elie, I have this family business my brother started to be okay if I called you every once in a while just to get some advice. Well, every once in a while, not only that become every week it became every day, and definitely every waking hour when our time zones overlap and you know, at the point, you know, Craig had a big vision and I share people’s big visions. It’s what I do I work with intrapreneurs on helping them realize big ideas. He wanted to obsolete cigarettes, right? That was a very big idea. And I took an interest in in in joining him as chairman of the company and to actively help them build a company. And, you know, that’s something that just happened over time, literally over the phone between Jerusalem and Scottsdale, Arizona. With time, I also convinced him that he would be the best CEO for the company. But that’s a whole different story.

Jeremy Weisz

We definitely got into that a little bit as well, um, you know, back to see you’re eight, and you moved to Israel

Elie Wurtman

was correct. So I grew up in a family that was very ideological, they saw an historic moment in the rebirth of Israel, right? You yourself mentioned that, that your ancestors were survivors of the Holocaust. And this moment of the creation of State of Israel called many people to to come here to be part of the building, and founding of this country. I was just a child I was brought along, but definitely my entire adult life. Even if I complained as a kid, Why would my parents taking me away has been very much as a builder, you know, of this country. And I, I’ve expressed that in in being a economic builder, big entrepreneur and job creation. But it’s really a special part of living in Israel. This is the ideological framework in which we live. You know, I believe very similar to the way many people live in the US as well, right, which is the country it was founded by visionaries with an ideological bent towards building something different that stood for something and it’s very much how I live my life here. It’s very much how I see a continuity and my identity as somebody who was born in the US, but grew up here and very much feel at home and both countries.

Jeremy Weisz

What did you learn from your mom? What did you see your mom doing? Because she was an activist,

Elie Wurtman

I tell people, I don’t have an MBA, I don’t have a degree in economics, I don’t have a degree in technology. You know, I tell people that the best training, if you want to be an entrepreneur, is to be an activist. And probably the next best best thing is to be the child of an activist, to see somebody who is out to accomplish something very big. In her case, it was bringing down the Soviet Empire, to for human rights, to give people the right to immigrate, to give Jews the right to practice their religion to return to their homeland. And doing that with with minimal resources. making a lot of noise, you know, in the public sphere, applying political pressure, we’re going to call it different forms of marketing. And the product happened to have been human rights and freedom of immigration,

Jeremy Weisz

good product.

Elie Wurtman

It’s a great, it’s a great product, right? And learning how people organize how they work together, how they do things across borders. You know, really, as I look back at my career is what I’ve done, right? I’ve worked with, in many cases, a small band of intrapreneurs, wanting to change reality and an industry right and organizing with small means compared to the big corporates that we usually take on as startups. And you’ll see the parallels right, it makes total sense, right? But it took me a long time to realize it, but definitely growing up with activist parents. My mom and my dad are very much a framework for what I have done throughout my career.

Jeremy Weisz

Yeah. And, like, tell me about what’s a story that you remember, maybe at the time, you didn’t realize it impacted you But looking back from your, your mom doing her thing as an activist?

Elie Wurtman

Yeah. So you know, I spent a lot of time as a business executive thinking about the need to document things to communicate clearly to share you know, with other people and I can remember as a child late at night because of the timezone differences. My mom and my dad being on the phone with cassette recorders, right you, you you’re sitting in front of a microphone right now we’re using some vo hard disk space in the cloud, but back in the day it was it was a it was a microphone connected to a tape recorder with a suction device attached to the back of a handheld telephone, recording phone calls right at my mother calling into Moscow, Leningrad, Leningrad other pieces across the Soviet Union, speaking to activists on the ground, they’re speaking to people who were organizing, Dr. Documenting those phone calls, writing them up getting the word out there. And as you know, once again, it’s a reflective moment. And I thank you for helping me to remember that, you know, when we come up with ideas today, and we’re trying to do small things, or big things, you know, here Jerusalem or wherever you might be as an intrapreneur. and communicating with the world and sharing the messages, not just why it happened. Or not just what you’re working on, but why you’re working on it, what you’re doing, right, the underlying mission, and the same things that I probably learned or or saw as a child, or things that I applied to my, to my business and my entrepreneurial endeavors as I as I go forward.

Jeremy Weisz

Yeah, Elie is your mom and dad took on a country as their activism, you tend to take on technology, disrupt technology, you know, disrupt major industries with technology. And you started co founded Deltathree, so and took on the telephone industry. What did you see at the time? What was the original idea?

Elie Wurtman

Well, communications are very basic human needs we like to connect with with people. You know, I think, I think it was 18 T, right? The old advertisement reach out and touch someone, right, this idea of connecting people, there was one problem, it was very, very expensive. It costs several dollars a minute to make an international phone call. I was I was a student in the United States. And I would actually schedule with my parents 10 minutes a week was like a holy 10 minutes. And it was, you know, why do we only speak for 10 minutes, and on a Sunday morning, it was the discounted rate. And the only cost is $20. For that phone call. Right? It was $2 a minute. And you know, as you said, 1993. I don’t even remember the answer that one of the early startups in the in when the internet was starting was an Israeli company called vocal Vocal Tech. And they were one of the true pioneers. It was back when Netscape was the main browser, it wasn’t even version one, it was version 0.97. And this young Israeli company, to figure that had to translate your voice signal to a digital signal and put it over put over IP networks, which were just developing around the world with the advent of the Internet. I tried this, I called my partner in New York. And I said, This is incredible new technology. Let’s try it. But the next thing we said to each other was what if you can pick up a regular telephone, make that international phone call at a fraction of the cost of what at&t or MCI or sprint would be charging at the time. And that’s what we set out to do. And we did it from Jerusalem. And we in a very short period of time, in three years had built a global network, connecting the public switched telephone network to the international IP networks, with this technology that that converted voice to an IP signal and built a company, global company operating throughout the world literally being at the forefront of lowering the cost of international calling. And that is, you know, you know, the my answer to the question, whenever you say, Well, what are you going to do when at&t takes you on? I said, you know, with technology and speed and creativity, we will, you know, forge a new way. And that’s what we did

Jeremy Weisz

when you’re paving a new way. And, you know, you’re kind of creating this path that no one’s been on before, what were the some of the biggest challenges during that time?

Elie Wurtman

You know, the internet didn’t work the way it does today, and things don’t always go as planned. You know, and you’ve set up a server in Moscow or better yet, I flew to Moscow to figure out you know, where I can lease IP lines from and the only IP network in town is the old KGB network. And my meeting is with a general a bottle of vodka and not you know, a business executive at the phone company. But literally, those were, you know, those were some of the types of experiences we had. I sent one of my guys to Colombia, the country. I said don’t come back until we have a we have an idea. The network that we can connect to. And he calls me he’s in the middle of the jungle, there’s these these like, it’s, he’s not sure when he’s on the back of this cheap if he’s going into some drug dealers den or a communications company. But sure enough, when he gets there, there’s these huge satellite receiving stations that are transmitting over MC eyes, network IP lines. The challenge is when you’re doing something new, it’s finding partners, it’s building relationships. It’s taking, you know, this leap of faith that it’s all going to work out. Right. I was young and naive, of course, but sending an executive to once an executive, we were all 20 something right, our training wasn’t very significant in terms of world experience, figuring out with a sense of mission and purpose that we are going to do something. And doing whatever it takes to get it done is the ethos of an entrepreneur. And I would say specifically in Israeli intrapreneur, anything is possible, all you have to do is go out and do it. Or as Nike used to say, or probably still say, just do it. Right. And that is, that is the mantra. For me, it’s a mantra for many Israeli intrapreneurs. And basically facing things that seem you know, insurmountable or out of a movie eventually become possible when you are on the path of trying to achieve your goals.

Jeremy Weisz

Yeah, the training was not in navigating the jungle, I guess you could say, but, you know, I mean, that’s so interesting. La, because so you go into Moscow? Um, you know, are you speaking the language? How does that meeting go down? I mean, I figured I could picture you in sunglasses, a trench coat in a briefcase. You know, like, it just seems like an interesting it’ll go interesting business meeting, I guess you could say.

Elie Wurtman

So for starters, there was a trench coat, right? I got I live in Israel, it’s pretty war employment here. I get to Moscow. And I was freezing. And you know, we went out and I bought a trench to keep warm. That meeting. And, you know, I really have not thought about this story in many, many years. You know, I literally show up 11 o’clock in the morning there these there’s this guy as a former former general equivalent in KGB or the the Soviet Army or whatever it was at the time.

Jeremy Weisz

I mean, I will be scared of going back on it. I would be I will be worried. Yeah.

Elie Wurtman

It’s good to be young, right? Because we’re naive, and we’re not scared as easily as we are today. You know, when you’re young, you’re somewhat invincible. In hindsight, I should have been very scared and very nervous. The Viking gets opened up, the glasses are poured, it’s explained to me that we’re going to drink vodka while we have this discussion and negotiation on pricing on the on the old KGB network. And, you know, it won’t surprise you when I tell you that some of the details are a little hazy. But I do remember having to excuse myself take a short nap. And then coming back to complete the process.

Jeremy Weisz

It is wild. I am an I’m a lightweight when it comes to drinking so that that would they would definitely have an advantage on me. So, you know, then what happened? Kind of at the end? Towards the end of Deltathree? You took it public.

Elie Wurtman

Yeah. So. So we going public is not the end. It’s sometimes the end for venture capitalists. It’s the beginning for many companies, right? But it was an amazing run kind of from three, just over three years main 96 to November 99. We we started a company that we couldn’t convince anybody to invest in they’re like, you know, what are you doing? I think I had offered some guy like 10% of the company for $10,000. He turned me down the punchline is that company at its peak value is worth $2 billion. Right? So that was a $200 million position. You might be listening to your show, is I’m not gonna say his name, but he’s originally from Chicago. And, and he remembers that story. We literally the first round we raised 170 $717,000. from individuals who weren’t sure if they were making a donation to Israel, or investing in the company. It was mostly from Americans people in New York. And yeah, we went public, November 99. We start the morning at a $500 million market cap, we end the day at a billion dollar market cap. So it was a double, very similar to the Vroom story, which we’ll talk about later. It stays above a billion for over a year. And then as many people remember, the markets crashed, right the.com bubble burst the telecommunications bubble burst. 911 75 is real. You know, we went from the best of times to the worst of time the company survived. I met somebody a couple years ago. He says, Elie, you don’t remember me. You hired me 18 years ago as a junior Network Operations Center. You know, hourly worker shift workers like that, is I just left the company, you know, 18 years later, wow. So companies have a long life long life beyond the original kind of entrepreneurial founders, period. Many founders stay with their companies, you know, throughout. I’m more of a serial entrepreneur, I’ve started companies, and we’ll go on to the next thing. And the next thing, I guess, it’s my version of of having issues concentrating. But of course, I’ve gone on to be an investor as well. But you know, delta three, it wasn’t it didn’t. It didn’t kind of stay up there from a valuation perspective, but it had a very long life and provided jobs and income for many people for a very long time. Something I’m very proud of, of course,

Jeremy Weisz

that’s amazing. Yeah, that the person was there. 18 years later. So you mentioned Vroom And we talked about, you know, disrupting major industries with technology, the telephone, now the auto industry. So what happened with the room? Yep.

Elie Wurtman

So I’m not, I’m not a car guy. I, until recently, I was driving a 10 year old 10 year old car, and it’s filled with scratches. And yet, somebody calls me up in the summer of 2014, and says LA, invest in this dealership in Grand Prairie, Texas. I’m like, I don’t think I’ve ever been to Texas, let alone Grand Prairie wherever that is. He says, Look, I know you’re in between things. Can you just can you fly over there? Check it out. They need somebody with your venture mindset. And, you know, I’m like, if I’m coming to the US, you know, I will come see you. And sure enough, I was like, called a very close friend of mine. Alone, blah, who he and I have worked with off and on since 2003. I said alone? Yeah, would you come with me and take a look at this thing. And it was my first time in a dealership in the US. And maybe ever as I think about it, maybe once. And I could not believe that this is how people buying buy cards. Right? We I was one I was one of the you know, as a consumer, I was, as I was an early adopter on Amazon, I think my account goes back to 1998. And, you know, I do most of my consumption online. And this idea that there’s a salesperson that I have to speak to, it’s somewhat unpleasant and trustworthy. It just made absolutely no sense to me, at the same time is probably pretty naive, like in my head entrepreneur, like, Oh, we can build a website, we can add the inventory on their real line, we get a fair price saying, and we’ll ship it anywhere in the United States. If you’re not happy, we’ll take it back in seven days. Which, you know, to me made total sense. Everyone’s like, you know, people need to do a test drive, and need to kick the tires. And very quickly, I came to the conclusion that that was all make believe it was make believe for an era when you know, sales were one to one, where a you want it to get the consumer into a car for that test drive to do a high pressure sale. But the modern consumer is very well educated researches everything online. They actually know what they want to buy before they buy it. And why not offer fair pricing based on algorithms online? Why not deliver delight to the to the end customer and I know we’re all all intrapreneurs are inspired by other entrepreneurs and you may have read the book by Tony Hsieh about Zappos or Delivering Happiness and why can we not do the same thing with cars? Why can we not take the single worst consumer experience you know, shopping experience in the United States, you know, buying a car low, buy Used Car, Which is probably even worse. My friends joke with me for a very long time that was a used car salesman and turning it into a, into an honest, fair, delightful, trustworthy experience. And that’s what we set out to do when we when we found in Vroom, when we took this dealership, which was which was called Auto America, and transformed it into Vroom and renamed it and built it into a technology company.

Jeremy Weisz

So where does that stand today? Because it actually also had a an exit.

Elie Wurtman

Yeah. So you know, when I set out to do this with with a laon, we both said to ourselves, this might be our biggest accomplishment yet. And this was at the beginning. And we kind of just felt that the size of the opportunity and the fragmentation, the market and the broken, broken business process around this industry, lent itself to a very large outcome. And, you know, Vroom went public in June of this year, not so long ago, in the middle of the beginning of the COVID. Store. And before we we knew how bad it really was, it seemed like the world was coming to an end. And yet that storm, ended up being the perfect storm for Vroom, right. You don’t have to go into a showroom, you don’t have to speak to anybody, the car gets delivered to your front door. All those millennials who said they were never going to drive all sudden don’t want to take public transportation, they want to own cars, right. So everything was lined up for the Vroom business model, actually accelerated by what was going on outside. So public offering in, in June, like the perfect timing, as I said to you, we went out I think that morning and the $2.2 billion market cap. And by the close of the day, we were we were at 5 billion. And that was the number which which my partner and I said maybe this was the one, we had done some amazing things we had, we had we had built unicorns before. Maybe this would be the first one to become a very large company. And it happened much quicker than we believe it was it was a very exciting day, as you can imagine a

Jeremy Weisz

really exciting day. And you know, the thing is, I’m curious. So you went through the.com bubble, you went through the 2008 financial crisis. And now Corona, do you see? Did those going through those eras prepare you for this at all?

Elie Wurtman

Absolutely. So in March, march 5, I came back to Israel from a ski trip and kind of word of Corona was becoming more more robust, right and more publicized and the the crisis has started to really get out of control in Europe. And we remember horror stories from Italy and other places. And it became clear to me that it was time to go in the bunker, right. And it hadn’t yet kind of hit the mainstream. But you know, not only was a crisis coming, it was going to be of epic proportions. And I spent, you know, the next days and weeks on on daily calls morning tonight with CEOs and founders in our portfolio at PICO. We’ve never been through a crisis before. They didn’t know what a crisis means. And, you know, many of these companies were out in the cliffs facing sudden death. If you hadn’t raised capital, recently, you know, the idea that that it would be possible to raise capital seemed impossible. And things have worked out a little bit differently than we predicted. But preparing for the crisis. being ready for the crisis was something which which to me, it becomes second nature. And here in Israel, unfortunately, we’ve been through you know, even more crises with with various you know, flare ups that we’ve experienced here with terrorism, and other things think has been very quiet for very long. But crisis of second nature and managing through crisis towards positive outcomes has really become a specialty of mine. The story as you know, is that most digital companies have accelerated right and they’ve grown by leaps and bounds and that if anything, the corona crisis has been an accelerator of digital transformation digital business, to preparing for crisis and getting company’s balance sheets in order and getting people You know, rather that they have to do the right thing, when when crisis is upon us, right? That it’s, it’s not about firing people, it’s about everyone tightening their belts, so that we can get through this the other end together and intact. Those are the talks I had daily with intrapreneurs. As we kind of made their way through March and April, by May, we were experiencing rapid growth, it was almost kind of like I got a pinch myself, that you know, that this is actually the perfect storm, as I said before for digital transformation.

Jeremy Weisz

Ali, I want to talk about your advice in a crisis. You know, any of the companies you remember talking to and what you said to one of them, but I do remember you saying something about, I don’t remember which passed company, but you said a rocket was shot at Israel, you’re seeing if it was going to be actually, you know, you know, thwarted, and then you went back to the business deal. So this stuff is happens, even despite, doesn’t have to be the.com bubble doesn’t be the 2008 financial crisis, but this stuff has happened throughout. What was your advice to to one of the people do you remember?

Elie Wurtman

Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s fundamentally, I think it’s pretty basic, you know, human advice, worrying is not gonna get us anywhere. It’s, it’s, it’s staying positive. It’s understanding that relationships are long and forever, you know, and doing the right thing, right. And it’s, for me, the core values, right of how you handle things in this moment, as different I mean, the the rocket is different from from COVID, where I was really worried about companies going bankrupt, you might say that a rocket hitting your office could be pretty, pretty painful as well, right? But the attitude is the same, right? It’s moving forward, it’s looking past. There’s a poem, which I love called the trough. Which is just a reminder that kind of, we will see that rising against basically a positive positive outlook, on life and on the world. And sometimes our job, just mentoring entrepreneurs or leaders is reminding them that we’re going to get back on top. We always do right, humanity has always kind of gotten through these things and move forward, no matter how bleak they may seem, and having the strength to do that is important, and sometimes we need people to hold our hand to get there.

Jeremy Weisz

Totally. Um, we talked about the, you know, transforming, you know, the auto industry and talk about AutoLeadStar, and how did you meet Aharon Horwitz?

Elie Wurtman

Yes, so Aharon is really one of my favorite people. And he’s gonna have to listen, to hear that. I’m not going to tell him and you’re not going to tell him I said that. He is an amazing entrepreneur. He was a social activist. Going back to our earlier conversation before he was a business intrapreneur he built one of the greatest social enterprises here in Jerusalem and Israel. And I think today, it’s international called Present Tense. And he is exactly the kind of person I like to invest in, we had met here in Jerusalem in the entrepreneurial community. And I was immediately interested in who he was as a person, the values that drove him that obviously succeeding in business has important, you know, financial KPIs attached to it. But he was interested as I am in building the economy of our city and building the economy of our country, and ultimately using technology to transform business. And, you know, I knew a lot about the auto industry because of Vroom and he was working on various AI technologies to enhance consumer behavior around around customer acquisition and all sorts of things online. And we got into a mentorship relationship. I was not an investor in this company Initially, I really liked him as a person, and we spend a lot of time together. And some people you give advice to, and they kind of nod their head and they move on. And at one point, I had suggested something to Aharon. And, you know, he went out and did it and came back a few weeks later and said, What do you think and, you know, I realized that, you know, there can be a tremendous opportunity to work with somebody like Aharon, who was interested, not only in what I had to say, was willing to act on it, but it was also ideologically driven the same way I was and we’ve become very good friends over the years, I’ve had the great pleasure of being his his lead investor in his business and helping him grow it and create, you know, jobs here. And it’s, it’s everything, it’s the whole package that I’ve enjoyed. And I’m sure we’re going to build a very successful company.

Jeremy Weisz

Definitely. Um, I talked about PICO, and starting PICO.

Elie Wurtman

So PICO stands for People, Ideas Community and Opportunity four words, which I hold very dearly. And I believe that when you bring those words together, great things happen. And early days of PICO, somebody, Italian journalist would come by and asked me about the name, he said to me, PICO and Italian piccolino, something very small doesn’t make sense. And I luckily I just ignored him. And then a Spanish journalist came in and told me that PICO in Spanish means the peak right the peak of a mountain. And that works very well with my beliefs, right. And this idea that we bring together people idea, community and opportunity, that together we can we can reach the peak and PICO started really, as a social enterprise, I was a fellow at the I still am a fellow at the Aspen Institute at the middle east Leadership Initiative, on this journey, from what they call success to significance and that we have to take our entrepreneurial skills, and try and fundamentally create a better world and better reality around us. And PICO started as a social enterprise project for myself in Jerusalem, wanting to bring together the entrepreneurial community, through a sense of space, I built out this beautiful loft here and industrial area in Jerusalem that brought people together, basically an open platform policy. If you’re a for profit intrapreneur you’re welcome to kind of sit there and pay what you could if you were a social entrepreneur, just come sit for free and be a part of the community. And

Elie Wurtman

we very quickly discovered that the energy of bringing together social entrepreneurs, and for profit intrapreneurs create a very unique energy which drove people to go further. PICO started there, I very quickly found myself exposed to amazing people, like Aharon Horowitz, it’s like other intrapreneurs that we ended up backing. You might be simply I am not an investor. But you might be familiar with a company called Via, that provide a lot of public transportation ship pool transportation. In New York and other cities that started at PICO floozies, great people, great opportunities, lots of creativity, great sense of community, and I realized I was going to be investing in startups and PICO the place also became PICO Venture Partners, the funds. And it was born, you know, from a social mission, that entrepreneurs change the world. And I wanted to enable that and capitalism is a necessary requirement right to build businesses. So the two went very well together.

Jeremy Weisz

You know, first of all, Elie Thank you one last quick question. But I want to point people towards PICO.partners. I don’t know if there’s any other places we should point people towards online to find out more.

Elie Wurtman

Yeah, so you know, PICO.partners, talks about our values talks about our portfolio, it’s a good place to learn more about us. I would say, um, I used fairly shy recently, I’ve done a few more interviews, I’m happy to be hosted by you here, Jeremy. So I really speak a lot about this nexus of values, and being mission driven, driven as an individual and how that I think complements success in business and entrepreneurial drive and, and, you know, I would encourage your listeners to, to kind of tune into that, very much inspired by the values from my home and my upbringing and other other experiences throughout my life. And, you know, the other place where I talk about things which are important to me, is an organization called PICO Kids which we started there which is really focused on on the future generations and giving youth 21st Century Skills values sense of identity, and understanding, you know, our roles in this world, where we come from, you know, where we’re at where we’re going and each individual’s ability to contribute to that. So that would be the other area I would I would kind of direct you to.

Jeremy Weisz

That was my last question. Actually, Elie is PICO Kids, and one of your favorite stories from PICO kids.

Elie Wurtman

So one of my favorite stories, you know, PICO Kids was born in our office with 12 kids and the crew, the 4000 children is an interaction between nine or 10. Young women in seventh grade, who were participating in one of our microphones, it’s like a hackathon, but you make things. And they had built a prototype for a new divers watch that provided feedback not only on your own vital signs, but also on your friends vital signs, whoever you might be diving with. And as and it was part of a larger megaphone about ocean living and rising tides. And I brought in the high tech executive who was the CEO of a, of a startup called Connect team who in his military service in Israel, was actually a commander of summary. And, and part of the way we work is that we have people from the high tech industry, interact with kids, at what we call high level and treat them like adults, and provide real feedback. And his real feedback was, your innovation is going to save lives, your innovation is going to save the lives of soldiers of divers, that this is something that we can really take to the Israeli Navy, you can take to civilian industries. And it’s that interaction, which I believe empowers a child, or in this case, these young women to say I can do it, I have what it takes my creative abilities that every single person in my belief in the world has, well get me where I need to go. right but that lightning bolt of confidence is what inspires me every day and seeing many young people in PICO kids with big smiles on their face, the sense of confidence that they can go out and conquer the mountain and reach that peak is what you know, I believe we’re doing a PICO kids. I know I have to finish up Jeremy. But it reminded me of my last story, it’ll be a nice book ends to where you start asking me about Craig Weiss. I was Craig Weiss’ mentor as he was building Njoy. And at one point, we went to 17 together and I call the best day of SEO training. And we were going to climb I believe it’s Yosemite Falls was the name of the hike, it’s a 3000 foot climb pretty much straight up if you’ve done it, that’s a path. But it’s pretty, pretty straight up. And I was you know, I’m still overweight, but I was much more overweight at the time. And, you know, here’s Craig. And he’s like, you know, we’re halfway up and he’s like, you know, in this head, this guy, he’s not gonna make it like, you know, I don’t know, all I need to do is last a little bit longer than him. And then we can go back down and get a nice meal. But, you know, what he saw was my drive and to to really go up and conquer that mountain and reach the peak and nicely, you know, this comes together with PICO in Spanish, unintended, by the way, but this idea that we’re constantly climbing mountains, we’re having, we’re wanting to get to the top and there’s always another peak to climb. It’s fundamentally what excites me. If you’re an entrepreneur, if you’re a young person in the world, if you’re just, you know, here and want to have, you know, a sense of fulfillment, it’s about going out there. It’s having the drive to get there and it’s what I would leave you with, as we kind of summarize PICO, PICO Kids and and the entrepreneurial journey.

Jeremy Weisz

Elie I wanna be the first one to thank you everyone, check out PICO.partners and much more, check out more episodes. Thanks, everyone.