Dave Durocher
all of my prison terms prior to that, three of the four previous prison terms, I had loaded firearms, usually a couple of them with me, so they knew that I was probably packing or had firearms on me. So on that particular day, when I got to a house in Huntington Beach and I looked out the window while I was going about my business, weighing dope, taking phone calls and getting ready to go out and make some deliveries. That helicopter was out there for a very long time and usually the helicopters in the city are kind of floating around just patrolling the city. This particular helicopter was really, really high in the sky. And it’s ironic because I took and Tim our CEO back to that location two years ago. And we stood at that house and I pointed at the window to show him where I was looking out when it all happened. But a couple hours went by and when I decided to leave the house, I wasn’t really thinking much of it. You know, I didn’t think they were there for me, but I got that weird feeling in my belly that they might be and no sooner did I get my car and drive away. Were there cops everywhere, they weren’t going to go into the house to get me because the person who would told on me I guess that was part of the deal that they had made. So they just waited for me to pull away and there was multiple agencies, Huntington Beach Police Department, Anaheim, parole. I don’t remember who else but there was just a lot of it was a very harried and hectic experience. And I had told myself previously, having done the for prison terms that if I get busted again, I know I’m going back to prison for the rest of my life. So I I’m not going to stop. And there was a part in that high speed chase on Atlantic and Magnolia that I was approaching a roadblock at that intersection. And I had a decision to make, stop and get arrested or go through it and hope that they kill me. And Jeremy, I just kind of hunkered down in my car took a deep breath, and just went through it and displace the cars that were in the intersection and made the left hand turn. And that’s when the cop closest to me did the pit maneuver, and spun me out of control and shoved me up on an embankment. And you know, as I look back on it now, I’m grateful that they didn’t kill me, but at that time, that is really what I wanted to do, because I didn’t want to go back to prison to spend the rest of my life there.
Jeremy Weisz
What are your thoughts now with the changing laws that marijuana is legal?
Dave Durocher
Who that’s uh, you know, I think that marijuana obviously has some value for those who need it for medicinal purposes. But for me personally in many people that I know marijuana, drinking and marijuana With the gateway drugs, I was drinking alcohol at a young age and smoking pot right around the same time, and pot led to coke and then one thing led to another, but it was a gateway drug for me. I think there’s a lot there’s a lot to unpack in that question because a lot of adults who start smoking pot at 30 4050 years old, probably aren’t going to revert to methamphetamine or heroin as a result of it. But if kids do that, there’s a huge difference between an adult doing it and children doing it once kids start smoking pot. It usually is the gateway drug to other stuff. So I think it’s a it’s a bad idea as far as that’s concerned, but you know, for those who need it, medicinal Lee I get the value there as well.
Jeremy Weisz
You know, Dave, I want to go back to this. You know, when I read it in the interview, for the first time you were arrested at 13 What was life like? When you were you know, 1213
Dave Durocher
um, you know, my mom and dad are still married. Today, they’ve been married now for 57 years. And it was it was bumpy. It was Rocky and there for a while, and my dad was a drinker. And that’s where I learned it. You know, he didn’t teach me how to drink. But that’s where I saw my dad drinking. And you know, and it’s amazing what happens when you’re a kid because you learn so much from your parents, just visually watching what they do not so much and what they say. And I don’t think we put enough emphasis on that. But my dad was verbally abusive, at times physically abusive, and again, as a child at 910 11 1213. That was the norm. I didn’t know any better because that was that household I grew up in. And I think what ended up happening was I started to believe some of the things that he was saying, as I was growing up that I was never going to amount to anything. He would use very vernacular at times. And now as I look back on it, that was the turning point for me, that led me away from the good friends down another path with people that were you know, drinking and smoking and doing all of those things. So my upbringing was decent. Besides the fact that I had that relationship with my dad, and one thing led to another, and I started to drink and smoke pot to kind of escape from how I felt. Does that make sense?
Jeremy Weisz
Yeah, totally. Um, because I think, I don’t know if you have a lesson or something for parents in general. At that time, you know, someone who’s you know, it’s amazing what you said because kids just pick up on things. They do you know, whether you say it or not, they just are like sponges and whether you see it or not, they are picking up on it.
Dave Durocher
Yep. I’ve got a lot to say as it relates to that because, you know, I’ve got three boys of my own that I didn’t raise because the lifestyle that I chose so I know the damage that it does, but you know, it is so important. It is it is just paramount. parents get so busy these days. My mom and dad were both in aerospace so they both worked full time. Just jobs, oftentimes more than 40 hours a week. So I became a latchkey kid at a very young age, I had a lot of freedoms. And and that was not a good thing. And then your parents come home from work, they got to cook dinner and they’ve got their own lives. And, you know, all of those things happen. And I don’t think I got the attention that I needed. I didn’t realize at the time I wasn’t getting the attention that I needed. And the attention that I did get was negative because I was like Dennis the Menace even before I started using, I was just that kind of a child. So as I look back on things now, I cannot emphasize enough how important it is for parents to raise good kids, because it is so much easier than fixing broken men. I think what happens in today’s world is the parents work, they come home, they cook dinner, they put the kids to bed, but they don’t realize just how important it is to build those really strong, strong connections with their kids. So the kids can confide in them and the things that they’re going through and not feel judged or not feel like they can’t share those those those things with their parents. And I think As I look back, that’s where I was at. Did my parents loved me? Yes. Did I love them? Yes. But did I feel comfortable going to my dad, with the things I felt about the relationship that we were building or lack thereof? That’s where I think I fell short, but I didn’t know any better at that age. So it is very important to not just a did not just be there, but to be there.
Jeremy Weisz
You know, you know, I want to get to, you know, when you were rejected by Delancey Street, but, um, for people listening, is there a story like I know that you in your work that you do, you come across people who have been in prison many times, or maybe the first time and I’m sure you spoke in different groups? Is there a story you could tell from your one of the prison experiences that I don’t want to say elicit fear in someone who’s maybe listening and who’s maybe going starting to go down the wrong path and maybe here One the stories from your actual experience would don’t scare them or correct them or whatever it is because they have to choose it themselves. But what’s like a story from being in prison that would, you know, kind of have that effect with somewhere.
Dave Durocher
I think prisons in California are probably different than most prisons in the country. California is unique in the sense that I refer to prison as as high school with knives. You’ve got blacks, whites, Hispanics, basically fighting for control of the yard. The northern Hispanics and the southern Hispanics hate each other. The blacks and Hispanics and whites hate each other. It’s a hate factory. So as soon as I got to jail, early on, I think it was 89 or 90, the LA County Jail. I was in a cellblock, I want to say 9500. And it was just a warzone. And I didn’t know what bloods were, and I didn’t know what Crips were and I remember standing there and black guys roll up on me and say we’re just crippin. And the next thing I know, I’m fighting for people, and it didn’t turn out well, and I did the best that I could. But that’s when the that’s when it started for me in jail. Then when I got to prison, and I realized the prison politics in California are about as strong as anything you can imagine. There are so many rules and so many things you can or can’t do. And if you break those rules in prison, you’re going to get stabbed, you’re going to get cut, and you’re possibly going to be killed. The rioting, the the cell fights, all of them are bad, but I remember one right in particular, and at wasco State Prison on the four yard which was a light for yard right there in the day room, where we literally just us and the Hispanics fought for probably 10 minutes before the rest of the guards got in there. And it’s deadly, very deadly, because you don’t know who’s got what and there were times that I was in Jamestown, in California in prison where I had to cut somebody it’s it’s do that or it’s going to be done to you and then That’s kind of how you gain respect in prison is the amount of violence you’re willing to perpetrate. You know, are you going to be someone who lays down and does nothing? Or are you going to be somebody who stands up for your race and the cause, and you’re willing to hurt people? And you know, you have a quick decision to make. And that was the decision I made at that time. And as I look back on it now, I’m, I’m disgusted with the way I lived, but I I completely understand why I made the decisions that I did back then.
Jeremy Weisz
You know, I mean, it’s surviving. It is like a speck.
Dave Durocher
You know, I want to emphasize that, especially in California, I think as you do research, and you look at the California prisons, compared to probably any other state, it is far worse in the state of California than anywhere else, because of the prison politics, the racial divide.
Jeremy Weisz
What are some of the things you did to actually survive like, especially, you know, someone comes in there and maybe they’re not violent, right, maybe they have a drug offense. They’re not a violent person, but in order to survive at times. Like you almost have to be,
Dave Durocher
yeah, you know, if you come into a prison in California and you’re white, you have to abide by the rules inside the prison. So oftentimes, you know, on my second term, I became the get the guy with the keys or the shot color of the yard. So I was the guy in charge of all the white people on that particular yard at that particular time. So I called the shots if somebody came in and we pulled their paperwork, which means we were looking to see what their charges were to make sure they had no sex offenses to make sure they weren’t snitches or rats. If we found out that someone came on the yard then it was up to me to make sure that that person got handled accordingly and rolled up off the yard. So it was these were tough decisions to make but that’s kind of just the the lifestyle I fell into while I was in prison. I wouldn’t say fell into it. That’s those are the decisions I made. Does that does that make sense? Jeremy?
Jeremy Weisz
Yeah, totally. I’m just it’s, you know, it’s I could see how something like the Delancey Street and Other Side Academy. It’s like If you’re in this environment of hate, right, how are you supposed to change when you’re in an environment of hate?
Dave Durocher
Yep. Well, I’ve said it before. And I’ll say it again. jails and prisons are arts are conducive to change they’ve never worked designed to, and they’re never going to be, you can’t change in jail or prison. Even though there’s programs in some jails and some prisons, you can’t be accountable in there. Even if you’re going to a program while you’re incarcerated. You can’t be accountable we call 200%. accountability. If someone comes in and they’re doing something wrong, you can’t tell the cops if this guy is doing something wrong, even if you’re in a program, because if by chance, you’re in a pretty strong culture program, if you leave that program and go to another yard or another prison, that’s going to follow you there and you’re going to you’re in danger. So it’s almost impossible to change while you’re incarcerated. It really is. It’s hard to do. You need to be in a environment in a community that’s conducive to change for a long period of time to Learn to do something different.
Jeremy Weisz
What do you mean by 200% accountability
Dave Durocher
200% accountability for The Other Side Academy means I’m 100% accountable for me. As I was going through Delancey Street if I did something wrong to own it, either if they asked me if I did it to tell the truth, or if I did something wrong to be accountable before I had to be asked that’s 100% accountable, then to be accountable for your peers. If somebody in the program either here in Delancey Street did something wrong to go let somebody know so that that person could get the help that they needed, which is the complete opposite of what you know, we learn on the streets or in jail and
Jeremy Weisz
say, it seems like the exact opposite.
Dave Durocher
But here’s the thing. If If I go to Delancey Street having done all that time, I’ve been a drug addict for all those years, and I’m being sneaky and manipulating and Delancey Street and people see me do it and they don’t tell me are they helping me? Are they hurting me? they’re hurting. I’m not going to get the help that I need. And I’m acting the same way I did before I got there without the drugs and alcohol which is why these program grams work so well because it’s not about drugs and alcohol, it’s about behaviors. So then if I see someone doing something wrong, and I don’t say something, I’m not being 200% accountable 100% for me and 100% for them, I’m allowing them to do the same behaviors that got them in this trouble to begin with. I’m doing more damage than I am good.
Jeremy Weisz
Dave is there a daily practice I know and we’ll get to the story a little bit. But you know, when you have that 200% accountability, you live that in that environment for four or 568 10 years. We still have habits. Do you still do you have something in your daily routine to help so that it whether it’s a thought or an action that basically shifts your mindset from Okay, I never want to go back there or something, something something of that sort.
Dave Durocher
I don’t know that I have a daily routine, but having you know, if you’ve never been a drug addict, and you’ve never gone to jail, and you’ve never gone to prison, Let’s just use Joseph Grenny as an example, what a What a wonderful human being he is. Having never lived my lifestyle, it’s hard for him to understand what it’s like. And for me having never lived his lifestyle while I was incarcerated, it’s hard to understand what that’s like. So I think when you’ve lived the life that I lived for, as long as I lived it, and then got to Delancey Street and took advantage of that opportunity. After about three and a half years, I realized that I could live my life today, out there in the real world the same way I’m living it here. It took a few years for me to just come to that realization that I can do this now. But now every day that I wake up every day, I get to I get to compare my life today. What a wonderful life I have to that ugly one that I had, I can compare the two people don’t have that opportunity because they’ve lived their life the way they lived it I imagined a lot like you live yours, Jeremy. Right. So until you know the two side by side, so I it’s really easy for me. I go into jails I go into prisons. I presentations, I do interviews, all kinds of stuff. And every time I go back, I am reminded as I go through the vestibule, the gates closed and the sounds, the smells, all of that. It’s funny you asked that question because I don’t ever have drug dreams anymore. But I still have incarceration dreams. Every once in a while I’m incarcerated again. I’m back in jail around them. And ugly stuff is happening. And then I you know, I wake up like, who, you know, no drug dreams, hardly ever, but I still have incarceration dreams, that part is still it’s still in there. But to answer your question, that’s kind of how I do it. I just compare my life today to my life 15 years ago, and it’s a no brainer. I don’t ever want to go back to that. Again. It has nothing to do with drugs. It has to do with compromise. Do I do the right thing every single day, every opportunity for the right reasons, do not compromise once you start down that slippery slope. It’s very difficult to return around and get traction again.
Jeremy Weisz
You know, I encourage Dave, everyone to watch your TEDx talk that you gave. It’s pretty remarkable. And one piece struck me where you said, you know, I’m standing here, and I would have 11 years left on my sentence, I think at the point where you gave that talk.
Dave Durocher
Yeah. Yeah, I was it was funny. We were just having this conversation the other day, if I would have gotten the 22 years, which is what I asked for, that’s what I had coming. If I wasn’t given the opportunity to go to Delancey Street, I would still be in prison today. And because the way I live my life in prison, being a Shot Caller being the guy in charge on the yards, being a violent offender, and doing the things that I chose to do on the inside, I don’t know if I ever would have came home, maybe my 85% would have been done of the 22 years and I would have gotten out at 18 or 19 years, but Lord only knows how much more time I would have picked up while I was incarcerated.
Jeremy Weisz
You know how did you meet Joseph?
Dave Durocher
So, let’s see how I can. Joseph Grenny wrote a book called The Influencer. In that book The Influencer. One of the chapters features Mimi Silbert, the president of Delancey Street. So 1415 years ago when he was writing that book, he interviewed Mimi Silbert, and at that point, he realized this is a wonderful model Delancey Streets got the cure for cancer, but they’re not spreading it. They’re not opening up other facilities. They hadn’t in many, many years. And I think that planted the seed for him. Then a couple of his his he probably shared the story. He got into drugs themselves. And he quickly realized he needed to do something like this and Utah. So him and his cadre of colleagues and friends got together, went to Atlantic Street in San Francisco, I was already gone. They did the two day replication training and they left that replication training, knowing Yes, we can do it, but we can’t do it. We can do it, but we can’t be the ones running it. So big we started to do a search and they came across a gun. I’m having a brain fart. I’m Charlotte Harper, I’m sorry, Charlotte Harper, who was in Delancey Street for 38 years. And they found her on LinkedIn. And they reached out to her and said, Listen, this is what we want to do. Charlotte and I were in contact, she called me and she says, Listen, Dave, I’m about ready to go to Utah this Friday to meet a couple guys who want to do a replication. I’m like, really seriously, Charlotte, other people want to do this. You know, who are they? She says, I’m not sure. But if they’re
Jeremy Weisz
Why were you so skeptical?
Dave Durocher
Because people that don’t come from this background, can’t do it by themselves. The average Joe, the layman is not going to be able to start a therapeutic community and know how to deal with this population until you’ve been through it. It’s impossible. Because you don’t know what you don’t know. So yeah, I said, I’m going to travel out there this Friday, if they’re not crazy. Is this something you’d be interested in? I said absolutely. But they’ve got to be crazy. They can’t want it. There’s just no way around it. And that Friday, she came out and she met Joseph and Tim. And that Saturday we spoke. She said, Dave, they’re not crazy. I go really, Charlotte, you think they’ve got what it takes? She says I do. And I told them about you. She I guess what she said to them was I know one guy who can help you get this started. She says, Do you want to meet him? I says I do. And a week or two later, Tim and Joseph flew to Los Angeles. We met at La live that area of Los Angeles at Fleming’s steakhouse, and had about a two or three hour dinner meeting. And when we sat down before the meeting ever started, I said, gentlemen, don’t say a word. Who are you? First, let me ask questions. Who are you? What is the genesis of thought behind this? What makes you think you can and why in the hell would you want to? And Joseph spoke for the first 20 minutes and told me his story. Then Tim spoke, and I knew I was in the presence of great men. And when we were done with that meeting, that was the only one we needed. And that’s how we met.
Jeremy Weisz
And so at what point do you then launch? The Other Side Academy?
Dave Durocher
I think we met in March of 2015. Not long after they came to Los Angeles to meet me, I flew to Utah, and met with them. We had a big meeting at VitalSmarts with a lot of people that peppered me with a lot of questions. It was a long, long meeting. And then we just kind of went around the Wasatch Valley and they showed me the state and Tim spent a lot of time with me, showing me all the different, you know, BYU when they you when we looked at some properties, and I flew back and forth a few times. And then we landed on the current property that I’m sitting in now and we made the purchase in September of 2015. Me and some others, a colleagues that I brought from Valencia street moved in and we got started.
Jeremy Weisz
It’s a big undertaking,
Dave Durocher
Uhmm, Yes, it is.
Jeremy Weisz
Um, I want to go back to You apply to Delancey Street. And you got rejected. Yeah. And why?
Dave Durocher
So it’s it’s a fascinating how it all went. I didn’t know at the time what the requirements were what they weren’t. I just remember getting interviewed before my 10 year prison sentence. I didn’t know what my sentences are going to be. Because at that time, it was 20 years. And I ended up hiring a lawyer. We got it down to 10. And I pled out. But while I was fighting my case, I wrote Delancey Street. They interviewed me and they did not accept me. So I get a letter of non acceptance saying no bed space. That’s all I knew. I go on. I do my prison sentence my fourth term, I get out, get busted again in the high speed chase, go back to jail. rewrite Delancey Street again, this time they do accept me. Now I still don’t know why they didn’t the first time and why they did the second time completely different interviewers many years apart. But then about two and a half years into my stay at Delancey Street when I became an interviewer, I realized why in that first interview, all I talked about was the guns, the drugs, the women, the mayhem, the chaos, who I thought I was. And that’s all I talked about. Well, that interviewer saw right through me and left me right where I belonged. I Jeremy if needed accepted me, I wouldn’t be sitting here today. The fact that he left me in jail helped save my life because I wouldn’t have stayed in Valencia Street. I wasn’t ready to change. All I wanted to do is tell him when a big drug dealer gang member not gay member, but you know, gangster lifestyle. So he read right through it and realized I wasn’t ready and he was right. In the second interview many years later, I remember him asking me questions about my family, my my kids, my lifestyle. And I remember at the end of that interview or knocking on that glass with my handcuffs on with tears running down my face, begging him for an opportunity. He did accept me. So that was the difference between the two. The first time I never even asked for help. The second time I was begging for it.
Jeremy Weisz
You know cars about what The Other Side Academy is for people who don’t know and maybe walk us through from Okay, now they accepted you. What’s next?
Dave Durocher
So The Other Side Academy is a two and a half year re education facility for the most last among us. Our average student has been arrested over 25 times we have a small cadre of people that have never been arrested when I say small, a couple, two or three, and many who have been arrested 30 or 40 times. So it’s the long term drug addict coupled with the criminal behavior. So two and a half years long, two years residential six years post grad, you can stay longer. The difference between us and your 30 6090 days model is it’s not about drugs. And here it’s about behaviors. Because all drug addicts there are no exceptions. Jeremy we become liars and cheaters and thieves and manipulators and self centered, self seeking people that don’t care about anybody, including ourselves, we just become completely broken. And so self consumed so selfish, that it’s very difficult patterns to break. So at The Other Side Academy, if you come in and take a seat on our bench and we interview you and we accept you, you start that day. If you write us a letter from the county jail pre sentence, we interview you, and you get a letter of acceptance and the judge sent you here, you start that day, it is completely free. We charge nobody anything. We take no money from the city, the county, the state, the federal government, Medicaid insurance. More importantly, rich mommy and daddy can’t come in and write a $200,000 a check and say, fix my son or daughter. We take nothing. We generate all of our own revenue through our social enterprises, which is where the magic happens. Because then when the student gets here, I don’t know if you can see me doing this. I’m kicking my feet up on my desk. We don’t sit around by some therapist is there replacing us Get up and go to work and we work our butts off until we learn to have a a monster work ethic. And all of those behaviors that led us to The Other Side Academy are going to come out in our daily routine work is the petri dish for the behaviors. So we’re a long term therapeutic community, completely peer driven, and it’s free. And here’s the other important part. I cannot emphasize this enough. 30 Day model 60 day model 90 day model, in most cases, you have to leave on day 3060 or 90. And why is that? Because the money’s running. Because the insurances run out, the state funding is run out rich, mommy and daddy are broke. There’s no money left. So you have to leave and it doesn’t matter whether you’re ready or not. You have to leave. So you can tell your counselor No, I’m not ready to go. I’m going to go out reoffend. I’m going to go use again. Does it matter, Mr. Durocher, you have to leave, but I’m going to reinvent. You have to leave we need the bed space for funding or money. Most programs are built around a funding model. We are built around a helping model. You can stay at The Other Side Academy as long as you want to as long as you are a contributing member in this community, you are positive, you are helping others and you are making progress, that Jeremy is where the magic happens. Because then you graduate when you know when your belly that you’re ready to reintegrate back into the community and become a productive member, not because a particular day came around, people leave programs for one of two reasons because they have to, or because they can, when you’re in a community like this where you can stay as long as you need to, then you get to leave when you’re ready. That’s the difference.
Jeremy Weisz
Talk about the social enterprises, Dave, for people who don’t know what kind of businesses
Dave Durocher
so we’ve got, we’ve got a number of social enterprises, some are revenue, generating some art food service, we cook for 110 people roughly with Students and staff three meals a day, seven days a week. So you’ve got food service that doesn’t generate revenue. But as ancillary and supportive of those that do, you’ve got corporate development, which is a team of people, because we’re a 501 c three nonprofit that are downstairs calling businesses all over the country, but primarily in Utah asking for donations, clothing, tools, food, whatever we might need to offset our expenses. So we don’t spend all of our money on those things. We can get them donated. Then we have construction, on site construction, taking care of all of our properties. And I’ve just recently in the last few months, actually launched The Other Side Builders is I think what we’re going to call it and now we’re doing off site construction projects also generating revenue. But you’ve got this corporate development, legal and finance, but the generating the social enterprises that generate the revenue are the moving company and our thrift stores, our moving company, we do about 250 to 300 moves a month. we generated $2.4 million last year on our moving company. And bear in mind Jeremy, how many times have our students been arrested on average,
Jeremy Weisz
like 15 to
Dave Durocher
25 times. So let me preface this. This is the same population that used to take your goods out your window. Now they wrap it up, tag it, deliver it to the other side and it all gets there. We are the number one rated moving company in the entire state of Utah number one with this population. So while we were doing that, we were taking a lot of donations, couch here, dining room table here bedroom said here and I had some shipping containers in the back of the property and we’re filling the shipping containers up with all this furniture that really didn’t know we were going to do it. And then about three and a half years ago we did a couple of yard sales could get a pretty big parking lot and made a couple thousand dollars one weekend a couple thousand the next weekend and we all got together and said we need to open a thrift store. People in Utah told us you can’t do that. We said why they said because there’s Eyes here, Deseret industries, which is the Mormon Church sponsored thrift stores. And we said, Oh, and what do you mean we can’t what’s next door to McDonald’s, Burger King next door to Burger King Pizza Hut. Don’t tell us we can’t open a thrift store because there’s goodwill or di Of course we can. And we opened one up right next to a DI and everything we won’t sell in our store, we donate to them. But when you will, the other side thrift boutique, you’re going to walk in, you’re going to look around, you’re going to turn around, go back outside and look at the side because you’re going to think you went into nordstroms. It’s that nice, upscale thrift store, top notch customer service, completely ran by the students. So those two social enterprises, the moving company and the thrift stores generate the lion’s share of our revenue, and the students, operate them and run them so they’re learning valuable hard skills and soft skills simultaneously, which is real life. Go to other programs. You’re there for 30 6090 days, you’re sitting around, or somebody’s paying $30,000 a month for you to be there, and you’re not learning anything you didn’t already know. So the social interview ID, I’m sorry,
Jeremy Weisz
yeah, you you mentioned, you know, right now you have a reputation and it’s well rated early on when you first started, no one knew you just like you said, the same people are taking it out the window, you know, are now in your house. How do you sell those initial customers on using your service?
Dave Durocher
You know, we when I actually started the moving company and not believe me, it’s a young man’s job it it beat me up. I’m 53 years old now that five years almost five years ago when we started, I had done a lot of moves while I was at Delancey Street. So I kind of knew already what to do. We just needed a couple customers to to have some faith in us and allow us to do it. And then we got really lucky, a very prominent radio show host here. Doug Wright. announced on radio that he was getting ready to move him and his wife bought a new home. And I think it was Joseph or Tim that reached out to him and asked him if he would allow us to do it. And we did. And we videoed it. He put it on air and it just blew up, then we do a lot of advertising on on Yelp, a Home Advisor in a number of other social sites. And, you know, we just kept building on it. And, you know, when you have hundreds of five star reviews, it’s just it feeds on itself now.
Jeremy Weisz
Yeah, you know, one of my favorite quotes when I was talking to Joseph and interviewing him, and he told the story about the the radio host. And I said, Joseph, you hit a line, I think, is one of my favorite lines of all time. And he said the guy when he approached the person to actually do the move, and the person said, you know, yeah, I’ll do it. And then he’s like, Well, you know, here’s the program. He’s a guy. I don’t know. It’s my family. Joseph, I don’t know. And he said, you know, the difference is the other moving companies have ex convicts. We’re just upfront about it. We have a cause about it.
Dave Durocher
Right? Not just that. Not just that Jeremy. But have you ever met anybody while you were going to high school or going to college and said, Man, Jeremy, congratulations on graduating, I can’t wait. I’m gonna go be a mover. Nobody wants to. You fall into those positions, by default, pass the postal exam, or you’re a drug addict, you or your crazy one of the three because nobody wants to be a mover. So today, if you hire a moving company, odds are you’re going to get somebody that has a little something illegal and that little pocket of his jeans, probably has a beer in the cooler. He’s probably on the phone talking to his drug addict girlfriend while you’re paying and $50 an hour. All of those things are happening simultaneously while he’s on your move. The difference is you get that same population only they’ve come out the other side. They’re clean, they’re sober. They’re not on the phones, they’re not drinking. They didn’t get it the night before. So it’s the same population, just the changed version. Yeah,
Jeremy Weisz
I want to talk about some of the values of The Other Side Academy, because they mimic the values of and we are talking with Joseph about this, some of the biggest companies in the world and even investment capital companies. One of them is feedback. And you talk about in your TEDx talk about taking getting a haircut, right. So I wonder if you could share a few times of feedback where you are given just raw feedback and also where you actually had to give someone raw feedback.
Dave Durocher
If you come to an organization like this, and you don’t make feedback, your best friend, you’re in trouble. It is impossible to change unless you listen to people tell you You and it’s not an attack on the person. It’s an attack on the behavior. I was into DeLancey Street. I wasn’t there for very long. And there was a big club area, the common meeting area. Then there was a little hallway with a couch set up and an overlook the windows out on the veranda, and smokers would be out there smoking cigarettes. And I was standing in front of the couch with my back to the windows and there was five or six guys sitting on that couch, all white guys from Orange County, and I was talking to them, and I didn’t realize how that looked at the time. So someone walked by saw me addressing them, and they gave me a pull up. Dave, what are you doing? You guys need to mix it up. I took offense to it. I didn’t like the pull up. I snipe back. I said what I wanted to say to him like don’t don’t you talk to me like that. Do you know you? Don’t you know who you think you’re talking to? You know, that kind of thing. An hour later, they pull me out of my job and they take me in the Vatican and they blasted me. They blasted me not just because I didn’t take I pull up and just say, okay, but the optics of it, here’s me having lived that lifestyle standing there addressing five or six white guys, it looked like a prison yard meeting. And it clicked like, my goodness there, right? That probably is how it looked. And I was doing the very thing there that I had done previously, and I got blasted for it. One of the other worst haircuts I got at the beginning was, you’re never allowed to talk about your past while you’re to Delancey street or here, and one of my quote unquote, homeboys showed up because I knew so many people in Delancey Street, and he showed up and I asked him how a previous crime partner was, and, uh, I heard about that too, and I got blasted for that got four hours of community service, and I got put on that big window and for four hours, all I could do was stand there, that window and wipe windows while everybody saw me there. And then I got the game played with me for for a number of weeks about my behavior, about my inability to take a pull up. So it’s really critical. That that 200% accountability is critical to take the feedback. And my goodness, when you live the lifestyle I did if you don’t listen to people that are telling you about how you’re acting, why are you even there?
Jeremy Weisz
What’s your advice for people taking feedback? You know, that point again, you’re used to you don’t need to answer to anyone, you know, previous to this. You know, people, what’s your advice for people taking heart feedback?
Dave Durocher
Yeah, people come here, and they’re afraid of feedback. And I go, let me see if I’ve got this straight. You’ve been to jail. 28 times, you’d like to think of yourself as a hardened criminal. You’re willing to break into people’s homes, you’re willing to hurt people, you’re willing to be violent, you’re willing to deal whatever it is, you’re willing to do all that and you can’t sit in the game setting while someone tells you about yourself. Oh, my Lord, you’ve got to be kidding me. And 99% of the time, it’s because of the lack of humility, which translates the opposite pride. So I tell them when they get here, let me see if I’ve got this straight Jeremy, a guy who has been arrested 28 years I’ve been to prison four times. You’re sitting here telling me you’re having a hard time with feedback. You didn’t graduate high school, you didn’t raise your kids, you kicked them down the street for other people to raise. You’ve been in and out of jail in prison your whole adult life. You don’t don’t own your own business. You have nothing to speak off. What the hell are you so proud of? make me understand. Maybe I’m wrong. Make me understand why you’re so full of pride. Because it’s the false pride. It’s what the guys do, what you’re willing to do in jail. What you’re willing to do in prison fills you with all that false pride. But truth be told Jeremy, it takes a coward to do the things I did in jail in prison. It takes a real man to do what we’re doing today. To be open, honest, to be vulnerable to build real true connections.
Jeremy Weisz
Yeah, once you once you reflect back on people’s pasts and their lives Does the light bulb typically click on or does it take more than that,
Dave Durocher
you know, you’ll see a lot of what I refer to as aha moments in a person’s day. And usually if they if they can get rid of that false pride, and be more open to feedback, you know, it’s different for everybody. Some people you can talk to them just like this, have a just a heart to heart conversation. Other people you need to raise the volume a little bit and really get in there southern exposure. It just depends on who it is. And I think the art is learning to get to know your students and how to get through to them. But you’ll see somebody in their stay if they truly are here for the right reasons and they do want to change have many aha moments as you break through and peel back those layers of the onion, if you will.
Jeremy Weisz
You know, I remember watching you can only see a one sided you conducting an interview and basically reflecting back on I don’t know if you remember this about the person who basically said they cared for their family. You know, I’m talking about Yeah. So what did you say to them?
Dave Durocher
I was just I just did an interview earlier today, right? And I was talking to somebody on the phone. And I said, Do you have kids? And he said, Yeah, I said, How many? He says, two. I says, What are their names? And he gave me both names. I go, how old are how old? Are they? He said, 10 and seven? I says, Do you love them? He says, with, with everything in the world. I love my kids. Let me see if I’ve got this straight. You’re calling me from jail. You’re on your way to prison for the fifth time. You just told me you love your kids. How in the hell would you treat them if you hated them? And there was dead silence on the phone. You use the word love. You haven’t seen your oldest in eight years, make me understand and the last eight years where you’ve shown them that you love them. The reason why you say you love your kids is because it makes it easy for you to sleep at night. But love is not a word. Love is an action. Where have you showed them that you do? Because you basically kick them down the street for other people to raise while you chase women and drugs. And he was silent on the phone and he goes, Wow, I’ve never heard it put to me like that before. I says you’re pathetic. You said you love people that you hurt. If that’s your definition of love. Either you are askew you have no idea what the word means, or you’re a sociopath. Which one is it? Well, Dave, I’d like to think that I don’t know the definition of love because I don’t think I’m a sociopath. I said, Listen, I believe you want to love your kids. Most people do, but you have no idea how to because you don’t know how to love you. And if you can’t love you How in the hell you can love anybody else. And the interview was it was a powerful interview.
Jeremy Weisz
You know, you know what’s interesting? You know being an interview is got to be a really, really tough job because You probably want to help everyone. But not everyone wants help.
Dave Durocher
Yep.
Jeremy Weisz
How is it? Do you deal with the you know, this person needs it yet you have to reject them based on what they’re saying and how they’re acting. You know, we
Dave Durocher
there’s only a few hard stops and an interview, if you’ve ever had any sex offenses at all, whether you have to register or not register, if you have those kinds of charges, we can’t take you if you’ve got arson, we can’t take you and if you require psychotropic medication, and most of our students have been on anxiety, medications for anxiety or depression or PTSD, any number of things like that and you know, Jeremy, who hasn’t been diagnosed with ADHD since 1980. Everybody the doctors, you know what I mean? And the doctors are leading drug addicts because what happens is you put them on these medications, then they don’t get the opportunity to learn to deal with their emotions, which means they’re going to go back to their again. So we understand that drug addicts, when you’re out there running the streets are going to have anxiety, you’re stealing from people and running from the law, then you get busted, of course, you’re depressed, welcome to life, but putting them on medications is a bad thing. So to get to your question, um, I got sidetracked on that.
Jeremy Weisz
It’s really it’s just really must be hard when you get so like you’re mentioning, there’s some hard stops like we can’t accept you. But TAs that it’s gotta be tough. If you you know, this person is going to get help. And you still have to be tell them, you know, this is not a fit right now.
Dave Durocher
I think if they don’t have the hard stops if they don’t have those things in their in their history, and they can get through the interview. I’ve got people in interviews that don’t show any remorse at all. They’ve gotten so cold over the years and kind of closed up that I get that part too. This is a perfect place for people like that. And others who just break down crying because they’re so emotional, and then everything in between. But if you Get through the interview and you don’t have any hard stops and there’s no red flags. Odds are we’re going to accept you. So usually when I have to say no, it’s because of a medical condition or some of the other red flags that we just can’t take.
Jeremy Weisz
Yeah. But there was one case, you know, you got rejected. Right. And then another one, I remember you telling a story, I think it was in a TEDx where you really you had to reject someone. And what happened after that?
Dave Durocher
I did at the very beginning, when we first started, we were very careful about who we brought in so we could get the culture started on the right foot, and the gentleman’s name was Leo, and it’s a fascinating story. Me and my friend at that time, Alan, we’re at a mall buying a birthday present for a friend of ours. We walk out of the mall and in Salt Lake City at City Creek, you have to go across the tracks to get into the second half of the mall. We see a guy sitting on the side Walk, His face is picked up. He’s got all kinds of scars. He’s sitting there with a cup. He’s panhandling with his dog. Fast forward four or five days later, there’s a guy sitting on our bench. I walked by look at the guy on the bench and I thought we’re, I just saw him a few days ago. I bring Alan into the room and I go remember a couple days ago when we were at the ball, and I explained the situation, he goes, Yeah, I go, that’s him on the bench. So, oddly enough, it was him. We bring him in and we do his interview. And he is a pompous arrogant ass. Can I say that on on air? You could? Yes, definitely. He was a pumping pompous, arrogant ass, and he wasn’t taking the interview seriously. So I told him, No, sent him on his way. And he walked out our front door, came around the facility, and unfortunately, you can’t see it now. He literally came out here. And I don’t know how well you can see but there’s a little tiny step out there near the street.
Jeremy Weisz
And he’s not Yep, yeah.
Dave Durocher
He sat on that step for a good 10 minutes. And then he got back up and he came around to the front door and he knocked on the door. And I opened it up and he was in tears. And he said, Dave, I owe deed last night. If you guys don’t take me, I’m going to die. Please give me a shot. Just that line alone was different than his entire interview. He must have went out there sat down, realize that he blew it came back around, came in and sat down. I interviewed him and took him. It was just one of those interviews that I’ll never forget.
Jeremy Weisz
Yeah, it’s amazing. Um, you mentioned some of the values right feedback. 200% Yeah, humility. I don’t know if you want to what your your favorite story about humility is a good way of putting it but there’s I know there’s stories about Jimmy, but I don’t know what sticks out to you as a good story. Whether it was with you or for someone else when they really got the humility part,
Dave Durocher
I think I didn’t realize how bad I had it when I got to Deland Street. And you know, I get to Delancey Street and I’m fortunate to even go because for a long time in the county jail fighting my case, the judge said No, Mr. brochure, you know, it went from 29 down to 22. After a number of months, some of the ancillary charges had fallen off. He said, you’re getting 22 years. There’s no ifs, ands or buts. But when I finally convinced him because I wrote him a letter four pages long front and back and finally convinced him to give me the shot. When I got to Delancey Street, I thought I was humble. There was nothing farther from the truth. The minute I got called off of maintenance to a regular full time job and landscaping like here, we have a number of social enterprises that don’t generate revenue. landscaping was one of them there, so they stuffed me in the backyard. I was beside myself, Jeremy. I hated it. I wanted to I what I referred to as bled all over the house, I complained and moaned and bitch And to whoever would listen, don’t they know who I am? they’re wasting me in the backyard. And I was mad because I thought that I had something coming. I just beat a 22 year prison sentence. And Jimmy Jones used to walk that dog down married standard that branded that I was sharing with you earlier, but the smokers would sit well down below there is where the grassy area is at. He’d sent his dog down there every morning to poop in that grassy area. And it drove me nuts. I wanted to run up there and beat him with that rake or the shovel whatever I was using, and drop kick his dog onto the one on one freeway, because that’s where we’re at in Southern California right off the one on one. And it took me a long time until I just finally became okay with it and realized, what am I even complaining about? I should imprison. And it took a long time for me to come to that realization that it’s not all about me. I already got what I asked for I got the opportunity. And Funny thing is, if in that interview, if they would have said, Mr. grocer, we’re going to take you you’re going to get out from underneath your prison sentence, but we’re going to put you in landscaping for two For the two years I just said, What do I sign? But the minute you get there, like all drug addicts, It’s never good enough. You’re normal. We want it now.
Jeremy Weisz
So we’re normal. Yeah, I’m sorry. It’s a new normal. I guess you just get accustomed to that.
Dave Durocher
Yeah. And in prison or in jail or on the streets. If I didn’t get what I wanted. I took what I wanted. Now I’m into Delancey Street and that isn’t working. It just wasn’t working. I had to learn to take a back seat and just be okay with stuff and just learn to be okay.
Jeremy Weisz
You know, that took some time. Dave what been I’m also a story that you you know, from someone else that you remember the transformation went on how they came to The Other Side Academy to the present. Um,
Dave Durocher
we haven’t we have a staff member here now by the name of Jordan. And his story was not unlike my own. He didn’t do as much time but he did a considerable amount of Time and he did had been a prison three times, drug dealer. You know, that guy out there just creating habits a lot like my own story. And I interviewed him over the phone and I accepted Him. And I went and picked him up at Davis county jail, and I brought him home. And he was very manipulating, very articulate, very sneaky. And when he started to get some freedoms, and he would leave the house, you never get to leave the house by yourself. You have to leave with other people. He would go to the gas station and he would convince the people he was with to go in and use the phone so he could call his girlfriend. We found out about it, he got a contract, which means he got in trouble, did a two week contract, and then had to earn the right back to have some freedoms again, then he did it a second time. So now he’s been with us for about a year now we got a second contract for the same offense using the phone to call the girlfriend and the guy you know, we think calling our girl You know, just so you can hear the man to the phone so that you can hear them say I love you, but you know darn well what they’re out there doing while you’re here, but that’s just how We are. So we does a second contract. And then about 18 months, he does it a third time. And at that point, he’s getting close to his the end of his day and I have a decision to make. So I confer with my colleagues and decide I’m going to walk him out, kick him out of The Other Side Academy, bring him back in, set them on the bench and re interview them, if that’s what he wants to do. If he doesn’t want to do that, good luck. Go back to court, go back to prison. So I brought him in the courtroom explained what we were going to do that I’m going to walk you out, I’m kicking you out, bringing you back in and it was a risky thing at the time to do because he could have opted not to and said, Nope, that’s it, I’m gone. But he knew that if you went back before the judge before he finished his two years that he was going back to prison. So he stayed. Not only did he stay in complete the first two years, but we started him over so we had to completely start over and he stayed another years and just four or five months ago. We hired him as a full time employee and he lives runs my construction department and my construction company. And he is a completely different person. So for many years of jail in prison to being sneaky and manipulating and making it all about him to walking out starting over coming back doing a stay all over again to now a full time staff member.
Jeremy Weisz
Yeah, and that’s kind of what you said earlier about the compromise, right? Because to some people that smell a call your girlfriend, no big deal, but that little compromise is a slippery slope.
Dave Durocher
Yeah, I call it cancer. Now, there’s, everybody knows the difference between right and wrong. You do I do. Most of society knows the difference between right and wrong. We get to choose every day and all of our daily dealings, you know what we’re going to do. There’s never any excuse and there’s a difference between making a mistake and making a conscious decision to do the wrong thing if I forget to set my alarm You know, at night I wake up in the morning laid on my god, you know, if I’m driving down the street having a conversation with the person I’m driving with, and I run the yellow or red light, those are mistakes. But when you make a conscious decision to do the wrong thing, and you know, it’s the wrong thing, that’s completely different. Those are some of the things we really key and on here at The Other Side Academy is making good sound decisions every single day no matter what. And when you start to compromise here. You don’t have drugs and alcohol to blame it on. And let’s just say you’re late to work, nobody notices and you don’t and you’re not 200% accountable. You’ve got the cancer, then you take an extra cookie when you’re not supposed to. There’s your cancer. You’ve got all these little things adding up adding up adding up now you’ve got a dozen little things you’ve done wrong and you haven’t been accountable for it. Then boom, stage four metastatic cancer, you do something big and your life blows up. So it’s really important that people understand never compromise I don’t care how big it is, do the right thing every single day for the right reasons no matter what, get in the practice of doing that, and your life will change.
Jeremy Weisz
Yeah, thanks for sharing that because it is a slippery slope. Um, one of the values we mentioned humility, feedback, where there’s some other values of the other side Academy. You know,
Dave Durocher
I, there’s three that I that really stand true for me, it’s honesty, accountability and integrity, being honest, impeccably, no matter what it doesn’t matter what it is, just be honest. accountability, a being accountable if you’ve done something wrong, being accountable if you haven’t done something wrong, and you know, others have just being impeccably accountable. And the sum of those two things is integrity. And Jeremy, if you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don’t, nothing else matters. You either have it or you don’t. And if you’re a drug addict, and you don’t have integrity, you’re going back. Because you’re going to leave this community back into the mainstream community where the pressures are much greater. And there’s a you know, life is difficult. And if you don’t learn integrity while you’re here, you’re going to go back out there and still make the same mistakes you did before. And you’re going to use again, invariably every time. Yeah, so honestly, it first of all integrity.
Jeremy Weisz
Yeah. First of all, I want to I want two last question, then I just want to thank you for your time and sharing these really powerful, inspiring stories. And everyone should check out The Other Side Academy. Whether you’re in Utah, you’re outside of Utah. There’s a lot of leadership and live by principles. Obviously. I always ask the essences inspired Insider. One, what’s been a low moment that you had to push through. And then on the other side, what’s been especially proud moment that you You think back
Dave Durocher
a little moment since I’ve been at The Other Side Academy
Jeremy Weisz
in general?
Dave Durocher
Who, um, you know, I don’t know, I think I think that one of the most difficult things since I’ve been here has been in my own personal life with my kids. Um, I’ve got three boys ages 30 to 35. And there was a 20 year window where I was non existent. I wasn’t there. And while I was in de Lancey Street, I was there for about five years when my oldest boy popped in and I didn’t know he was coming. And some of my colleagues, my peers there came into my office and said, Dave, your son’s here. I said, Excuse me. Well, I’ve got three who and they said, Christopher, and Jeremy, he, I came out and I was like, You got to be kidding me in 20 years have gone by no letters, no phone calls, no contact, nothing. And we went into a room and he played the game with me for two hours, calling me every Kind of an expletive you could imagine, in 90% of what he was said was accurate. The other 10% wasn’t, but it didn’t matter. So I sat there and I let him tell me how he felt about me and all the things that opine about, you know what he needed to say. And slowly over the years, I’ve been able to put these relationships back together with all three of my boys. But there’s been some trying times where I’m gone for all this time. And, you know, they’re reaching out, they’re asking for money, and they’re asking for this. And that’s not how we fix this relationship. You know, I realized I was gone, but I have very firm boundaries today. And if you’re not living a lifestyle that’s conducive to a good lifestyle, don’t ask me to bail you out. I’m not gonna I’m not going to parent you on guilt or remorse. I’m going to parent you on principles. And if that’s not good enough for you, then we don’t have a relationship going forward. And it’s worked, but it’s been difficult, trying to strike that balance. And now I’m in a relationship and I’m getting married in August and the woman I’m married. August has a 17 year old daughter, and I love her. I seriously do. And she’s a wonderful young lady. But she’s difficult. She’s entitled, she’s spoiled all of those things because her mom, girl, good luck this is it.
Jeremy Weisz
You serve X number of prison sentences and gone through all this and now you’ve changed.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah,
Dave Durocher
it’s been a challenge. Those two things have been the most challenging. I think, doing this kind of work. I’ve seen people come and people go and that’s always difficult but there really hasn’t been a low point for me Jeremy, a point where I was like, just I can’t do this. I this is in my it’s in my DNA. I love this. This work. I love this mission. You know, it’s just, there’s nothing else I’d rather do.
Jeremy Weisz
And then what about as far as the flip side, especially proud moment for you. Um, it could be you or me. One of the one of the people at the other side Academy,
Dave Durocher
I think, you know, the TED talk was in was was interesting, I didn’t even realize what TED talks were when I was I didn’t apply for it. They approached me and asked me to do it. And that was a very, I do a lot of presentations and a lot of speaking engagements all over the country. And very seldom do I have to memorize something. So that was a very trying, you know, it’s 18 minutes of memorization, and my brain doesn’t work that well anymore. And so that was a really a really cool experience for me. But more important than that was the number of people that have watched it. And you’ve come to the other side Academy, because mom and dad saw the TED Talk. And I knew doing it that that was my mission. And my goal that if I do this, I just hope that other people find their way here. And countless people have found their way here because they’ve seen the TED Talk. And that makes it so worthwhile. And I think some of the high points Aside from that, or was getting to the two year mark, or our first couple hundreds of students started to graduate. The first two years, it’s difficult because you don’t have anything coming out the graduating pipeline, you have people that are still here and you have people that leave. So it takes a while for this for to really start working. And I think watching our graduates graduate go out there and live successful lives. There’s no better feeling than that.
Jeremy Weisz
You know, totally. Dave, first of all, thank you everyone to check out The Other Side Academy. And anywhere else we should point people towards
Dave Durocher
The Other Side Academy either at Salt Lake City or Denver. We’ve got two facilities up and running now. We’re right in the hearts of Denver. We just bought a new property there. And we’ve got our our headquarters here in Salt Lake. And it looks like if things continue to move forward, that San Diego will be site three in the very near future. I figure you know, in the next few days, we’re going to decide whether or not we’re going to acquire that property and if so, I think inside of a year we’ll have site three open to San Diego. Don’t quote me. Well, it’s looking like San Diego.
Jeremy Weisz
Very cool and congratulations, everything you’ve done. Thank you for the inspiration, everyone, check out The Other Side Academy.
Dave Durocher
Thank you, Jeremy.
