Jeremy Weisz 13:57
AOL, at the time, what was the internet, right? Do you hear static on the line? Was that that time?
Ben LeDonni 14:03
Yeah, technology-wise, I mean, it was, I don’t know, some kind of net something that we would buy the domain through. We use lunar pages for hosting. We would buy the domain, buy the hosting, deploy the HTML, CSS files. Not a whole lot of database connectivity, or, definitely not a WordPress CMS type stuff. And I was in college for com size, so I was learning all of how to build the websites and web pages. So it was like, yeah, no problem. Can help you do this? Maybe it was $1,000 or something that was good, be your money while I was in college. But he was really, he was the first customer before I even formed an LLC and started the business. And that was a good for me into learning, well, I can do this as an entrepreneur and help people and do something I love. Ultimately, got his website up and running and online, and then still very good friends with Jonathan. He went off to work for other companies, and I’ve helped him at each one since, one of which is one of my favorite case studies of all time, with BNP Group.
Jeremy Weisz 15:01
We’ll talk about BNP Group in a second. But why did they want to go online? This is like most of the time. You know, you had to convince someone, even, probably years after, to even have a website. Do you remember why? Like, they were obviously an early adopter onto something?
Ben LeDonni 15:19
Yeah. I mean, what made them tick to decide to go online? I don’t 100% know. I mean, you still get these the growth adoption curve and the early adopters and stuff like that. They must have been somewhere on that early curve to want to be there. I think so much of it was a problem they were trying to solve, right? Like, every type of invention comes from some kind of problem. And for them, their problem was getting people to the showroom to see their products. And so they wanted to be able to give people their products in a digital format, so they didn’t have to call everybody and speak to them with an Italian accent and not be able to communicate properly, and all those things. And so this was a problem that they were able to solve with digital. We inventory their catalog, put it up online. Well, personally, I did it. It was just me at the time. And then they had their show. Their showroom was part of the internet.
Jeremy Weisz 16:11
So it started with a tile company and doing a website, which in that point involved a lot of different stuff. Like, you really need to be very technical at that time to even put a website online. I think domain names probably cost, I don’t know, hundreds of dollars at the time. They weren’t like $10 so it wasn’t like inexpensive for them. But what was the next milestone of a client and what you did for them at that point that you remember?
Ben LeDonni 16:40
Oh, man, so the next milestone, I’ll have to give that some thought. I mean, the next company that I worked with was actually a DJ and entertainment company that I did their website, believe it or not. I still try and keep that one, because always want to remember where you started, but this was Rhythm of the Night Entertainment, and basically worked with them to get their website up and running. We were, I worked with him. Scott Reagan, no longer with us. Rest in peace, Scott, but he was a great medical company as an entrepreneur.
And he actually, he was a DJ. I helped him set up and helped him DJ, and he learned, taught me how to do it, and when he wanted to get online, it was another opportunity for him to be progressive and get his website up and running? Milestone wise, that’s an interesting question, because I think one of the key, the biggest milestones in the journey of the business was, really, there were two big ones. One was content management systems, and the other one was responsive design. And I mean, tying this into engineering led marketing, I think that’s always been at the core, for me is like these things change, and the technology evolves, and then everybody’s forced to adapt and adopt, right? They have to adopt the technology and adapt the business to use it. But for me, like those two things were opportunities for me to dig in and get my hands dirty and start saying, oh, we could use WordPress for a website that’s kind of cool, like it’s a blogging platform, but really we can modify it to make it work. And then all these people that say they want to edit their own website, I could actually help them be able to do that in the back end without me having to do it and charge them hourly for it.
And great, let’s get them there. And then responsive, which responsive happened way before that, but responsive was okay, the iPhone comes out now, all of a sudden, everybody’s business, their websites, don’t look right on a phone. The end that the technology changed, engineers led the conversation about how the marketing needs to adapt. And then here we are with people like me and my company that can help them do that. And the reason I bring up engineering led marketing because we are in a huge version of that right now with AI and things like replit, where you can build your own code outright using an agent like there’s just so much that’s possible right now. So I think we’re in another major curve with the recent releases of all these AI technologies.
Jeremy Weisz 18:59
I can see what you’re saying with the engineering led marketing, like the engineering of whatever the iPhone or these smart devices, and then that changes how we have to market in a lot of ways, and even probably from the technology side, how the different platforms, what does that look like now? Like, I could see how the iPhone comes out, and you have to create this responsive design. Obviously, you have to modify the copy and other pictures and things. What does that look like now, and from the engineering led marketing perspective?
Ben LeDonni 19:40
I mean, the tip of the iceberg that everybody talks about is search, right like the way we find our information, or I did find it two years ago, Google search keywords got results and then went on and looked through a million different blue links and figured out what you wanted to do. That’s just totally blown up right now. You typically can get an answer. Even Google and Gemini, they’ll just give you the answer right there. You may not ever need to go to the website, and so you’re seeing search volume decrease, and all this stuff that happens as a result. But that’s not the biggest one, I think. I think that’s a product of this change. The biggest product of the change, I think, is the way that we work and the way that we are able to produce, be it content marketing, anything inside a business, is just totally shifted. So in my mind, there will be a shift in the way that the job roles are structured and functions operate around the tools that are now available that marketing has a huge impact on meaning that, like a marketing team doesn’t necessarily need to be shaped the way that it was before, it needs to be shaped very differently in order to use the tools properly to help get the job done.
So we’re a big HubSpot company. We love HubSpot. Deploy it for companies all the time, set up their workflows, all those great things, while HubSpot coming out with AI technology constantly what they produce. If we don’t know how to use it, we’re not elevating and staying involved in the game, and we’re not able to provide the type of consulting that we need to our cut to the companies that we work with. But I’ll even just say like the role of the marketer is different. Like your role no longer is to sit and write copy and have it be like the most amazing copy since sliced bread, to be a thought leader on a website, because nobody might ever come to your website to read it. So that’s just totally not there anymore. I mean, there’s versions of it that are, so I just think it’s way more about what tools do I have? What am I capable of doing with those tools, and how do I shift and operate a marketing team to leverage those tools to get ahead as a company? That’s the biggest shift.
Jeremy Weisz 21:53
Do you have any insights or thoughts on you said, marketing teams will be shaped differently. How do you see them being shaped now, like with different roles?
Ben LeDonni 22:05
Yeah, so I see one thing for sure, strategy is way more important than ever before. Like, not only the tools that you choose to use, but what are we trying to accomplish so we could pick the right tools that we want to use because there’s a plethora of AI stuff that’s out there. I think the role of a junior copywriter is gone. I mean, I’ve heard many people on podcast say that, but I really do believe it’s true. I think really good content will still continue to work, especially not AI created, and I think that connection between the brand and the consumer being authentic is so important. So you’ve actually, like, flipped the script, because there’s so much fake stuff out there, you’re almost like, enabling an ability for a company to reach out and be authentic, to differentiate, and that’s great, but you still have all those tools in the back end to be able to do that.
So I’ll give you an example. We take this podcast. I’m giving you authentic feedback and thoughts and everything, but we’re going to have a recording of it. We could go to Opus clip and take clips of it, of me and you speaking, and be able to post that online to our audience and connect with our audience in an easier, different way. So there’s another role of reusing the content that we already have, repurposing content, using it to drive connection that totally exists that didn’t before. And then the other piece I would touch on is just meeting recaps and recordings like, I mean, otter is part of every call that I’m on two weeks ago it was Fathom in two weeks. And maybe something else depending on the feature set, which one we want to use.
Jeremy Weisz 23:40
Yeah, I think we use Read AI.
Ben LeDonni 23:43
Okay, yeah. And, I mean, think about what that does for you. Like you don’t and should not type up meeting notes anymore. You should recap the meeting review the notes, take the action items, put them into your asana, whatever, and make sure that they get done. But we’ve just changed the workflow. See what I mean, like that’s a different workflow than before. We should be able to get more done. And if your marketing team is not working like that, then that’s a problem. I’ll give you a last one, because now, now I’m geeking out on all the engineering stuff, but GPT team, so we use ChatGPT teams, and we’ve got trained GPTs on things that we want to use over and over again. So train GPT.
You think of it like the LLM, like ChatGPT knows all of this stuff, but a GPT, you’re training it on something specific that you want it to know all the time, every time you ask it a question. And so we’ve got GPTs, for example, that are trained on specific customers of ours, their personas, their customer journeys, the frequently asked questions that people ask, and then when we want to come out with an email, it’s laser focused right towards that audience, because the GPT already knows it. Will we send it without reviewing the AI content? Absolutely not. But will it help us think through some strategy and planning and what we actually want to say? 100%. So these tools are just empowering us as marketers. If you’re not using them, you’re going to drag behind.
Jeremy Weisz 25:06
Yeah, I love that. So an example would be, we’ll talk about BNP Group for a second. But like, if you have a commercial HVAC company and you’re like, listen, here’s all the customer questions. Here’s where they’re at the journey. We need an email to speak directly to the customer, and they can, like, actually come up with some really good copy, because it’s using, and listen, it came from the strategy that you set in place in the beginning, right? Because you can’t magically just have this so you train this thing based on your strategic approach to getting all that background first. And that’s the foundation, right? And that’s kind of going back to what you’re saying is, like the strategy is going to be the most important thing. So I’m going to pull up BNP Group, and you can talk a little bit about BNP Group and what you did there.
Ben LeDonni 25:53
Oh, so you won’t see BNP Group’s website up anymore. It’s going to redirect.
Jeremy Weisz 25:59
I just have it on your major page.
Ben LeDonni 26:01
Oh, cool, yeah, yeah. So BNP Group. So Jonathan, who I worked with on quarry tile, the first customer that I ever worked with, he took on a role as a chief financial officer, or financial advisor, something, with this company, BNP Group. And basically was came to me and was like, Look, we need to elevate our game online. And this was years ago. I mean, this was years beyond when we did quarry tiles with website. So quarry tiles, 2001 2002 I think Jonathan called me about this in 2016 I want to say probably. And we worked with them over four years, probably to elevate their brand over time. First thing was nail down their audience.
They want to reach commercial HVAC people in the metro area. They were in New York. They did some residential, but they wanted to put an emphasis on commercial. They wanted to spotlight their technology and their service and their people and all of that. And so we really like honed in on what do we want to say the content elevated the website, rebuilt their entire website from the ground up, made sure it looked beautiful, posted to social media routinely. One of their ultimate goals was to look the part, in case there was an opportunity for acquisition. And so they had a competitor that we were chasing, that was one that set a good example, that was a bar we wanted to jump over, and we ultimately elevated the brand, made sure the messaging was going out there on email and social. And like I said, look the part to the point where when they ultimately wanted to sell. And I don’t know how that all went down, wasn’t privy to it, but I know they got a phone call and were accorded by me, and spoke to them, and also, ultimately, did sell and had an exit. And after that was all said and done, got the phone call from Jonathan who said, couldn’t have done this without you guys.
You guys obviously elevated our presence to the point where we were relevant and drove customers and made sure that we grew in a way where we were worth something, and that’s valuable. So that, to me, is cool. I love that story, because that’s what we pride ourselves on doing, is growing a company, growing its equity value, growing its customer base, it’s ultimately revenue through marketing, return on investment and marketing, and then make sure that there’s alignment as far as what they’re doing and they’re going in the direction that they want to go.
Jeremy Weisz 28:21
Thanks for sharing that. And you mentioned before about the shifting of job roles, right? Talk about yours. We’ll talk about pre and post-acquisition. But obviously you started off and your job role was everything, right? You coded the site. You were the sales person. What were some of the roles that maybe you stepped into and hire, got yourself out of throughout the course of the agency?
Ben LeDonni 28:47
Yeah, absolutely. So first hire I made was actually a developer, consultant developer consultant designers, allowed me to do more of the sales relationship based stuff. And honestly, I have the attitude of hiring for things that I’m not the best at. If there is somebody better than me at something, then I’d rather than be on my team than me doing that. I still have that sentiment. I think it’s a great way to run a business. And then when you hire people like, yeah, you don’t want to tell them what they should do. You want to make sure that they tell you, this is what I think I need to do to succeed. You hired me as the expert, trust me. So anyway, design development, and then at some point, I hired a project manager, account manager, that was one of the best hires. I think, you know, in hindsight, that type of person as a first hire can really help you make sure you’re scaling and doing things right, going back to strategy, but that’s a lot of strategy as a business.
And then one other thing we started to grow into as technology and marketing evolved to not just be websites, but be responsive, and then be SEO-led, and the websites were not just about being there and looking pretty, but also drive eyeballs and attracting an audience. We got into a lot of SEO and some more of the digital strategy. So hired a marketing director, that, knew her stuff. She’s still with us. Jen’s great first PM, truly PM that I hired, that I would say, really, took us the next level. Tyler, he’s still here with us as well. And really, those two hires from being leaders that can drive results from both the organizational and project management standpoint and then a strategic and marketing standpoint for clients, really helped us get to where we are. I’d also add in administrative help. I mean, as you get to a certain point, I think we were about 10 when we hired Alicia also still with us.
She was an executive system. We brought her on, but now she’s like the glue that holds the team together, as far as doing all of the micro things, like setting meetings through to big things, like helping us with making sure that collections and invoices and all that stuff is organized. So some really key hires throughout the growth.
Jeremy Weisz 30:59
Yeah, it’s funny, because I often hear the person who starts is that admin assistant has gone up to COO like because they’re just doing literally anything that needs to be done. And so they learn a little bit everything. I’m curious about the account manager piece, because from some of the conversations, I find people have a hard time training and onboarding those people. It’s sometimes the position that the founder is like, has that relationship with the clients, and how do they onboard that person and transition out? I’m curious how you onboarded your account manager?
Ben LeDonni 31:39
Yeah, well, I think you have to change your perspective on it first before you hire it. And I learned this the hard way. But you assume you’re going to hire that person, then 100% of the account management is going to go away. And it’s not true, right? It’s like 80/20 for the first three months, maybe. And then it flips to 50/50 for the next three and then maybe it’s 80/20 the other way the remainder of the relationship. And if you go in with that mindset, it’s not like you’re handing off the relationship that you have and that you’ve built, you’re bringing on somebody that can support you and do a better job than you are doing with that. I also tied account management and project management together, for better or worse, I just felt like it makes a lot of sense to be committing to something and then making sure that it’s getting done. And then the other piece to that, that I was going to say is just the challenge and perspective around they’re not going to do it the way you did it, because it’s your business.
Like, yeah, you may answer that email in 30 seconds and realize it’s super important, because you don’t eat if you keep that money to them, they have a job, and they feel like they can do it tomorrow, and that might be okay, like you just have to understand that, and that depends on the person that you hire, make sure that you’re setting the right growth plan for them and where they’re weak and where they need to go. But again, I lucked out with who I brought on, because they really added a ton of value and actually taught me, like, hey, you don’t need to respond to that email right away. They’re not our biggest customer, and I’m doing these six other things that really have a priority, and maybe we need to think of those first and foremost. And so again, trust the people that you hire. You hire them to do something, let them do it.
Jeremy Weisz 33:25
So pre and post-acquisition, talk about what was your role pre-acquisition like, right before you got acquired. Then we’ll talk about after.
Ben LeDonni 33:34
Yeah, so sales and business development, and then just overall, overseeing the company, plan, division, managing team members, and making sure that we were just heading in the right direction. So a lot of what I did was ok ours and planning objectives and key results and making sure that we knew where we were going. And then a lot of the relationship-based sales, partnership-based sales, and then post-acquisition, still very involved in the mission and vision of Engage. I did elevate that person that was the project manager that came on board. He’s now the managing director of Engage, and so he’s able to kind of run the business. I mean, having been with us for seven, almost eight years, he’s seen it all and knows how to do it, and has a lot of the relationships. And then now what I’m doing is trying to integrate us, or actually integrating us way more into the relationships that we have at the bigger company.
So BNP Media been around since the 1920s has, like always been at the forefront of driving B2B industries forward, and that was up until like 2019 all print publications and magazines, and now it’s shifted towards digital and audience, and digital connections through content online. And so we’re still continuing to drive the industries forward. I’m now looking at the relationships that we have with people that advertise with us, people that show up and exhibit at our events, and see how we can be more of a marketing partner than what traditionally may have been more of an advertising partner. And so that’s part of it. And then the second part of it is just elevating what we do at BNP Media from a marketing standpoint.
So soon as I got in with the acquisition, I elevated BNP Engage’s brand, because that was the brand we were consumed under. We were no longer Creative MMS, we went through a revision to the logo, we updated the website, and now I’m doing that at BNP Media. The main website is going to be elevated. The message that we come out with, from a marketing perspective, will just position us to make sure that everybody knows what we can do really well, which is, be a marketing partner?
Jeremy Weisz 35:42
Yeah, no, I think we’re looking at the website. I’m gonna share it again. It looks beautiful. It looks really nice. What was, from the acquisition perspective, enticing for them, for you to be acquired?
Ben LeDonni 36:04
Yeah, so, I mean, we were approached by a lot of different companies. I mean, we were a successful company. We had a lot of conversations. The thing that was appealing to them was also what was appealing to me. They have relationships, like I said, with advertisers that have trusted them for a long time to make sure that they’re driving eyeballs and audience and doing a really good job. And they have great content editors that know their spaces, be it roofing assembly, which is great magazine around like the materials and the facilitation of things coming together. HVAC, which is another one. You know, obviously we have some parallels there. But anyway, they have many brands, right? So they have like, 50 different brands that they manage, as well as events and things like that, with people that trust them to get eyeballs and audience in there.
So to me, that was really appealing to be like, we’ve already got people that know, like and trust a brand that we can come in and help more people right. Our mission statement was still, really is to strategically partner with those that are seeking the most effective digital marketing solutions, and so we can do a better job of that mission statement if we partner up with them. That was from my perspective and from their perspective, they got to bolt on a team of experts that know digital marketing really, really well. Like, we hired great designers. I’d put our designers up against almost anybody from a web design standpoint. Our development team — amazing. Put them up against anybody from especially when it comes to WordPress or front-end web stuff, they’re amazing. And then our marketers, like I said, from a strategic standpoint about how to use the tools that are out there, how to read the data like they’re best in class, people that I’ve hired and trained and have worked with B2B companies forever, and so from an acquisition standpoint, they got to bolt that on and offer that service and that marketing partnership to all of their customers in a way where we can elevate together their reach and our knowledge. And it just makes a ton of sense.
Jeremy Weisz 38:07
What’s the best way, I know, like when there’s an acquisition, especially if it’s a strategic acquisition, there’s a lot of synergy there. What’s the best way? And it sounds like they have a huge database. What’s the best way to get the word out without maybe overwhelming your team, which is maybe a good problem of now, we have this huge database. Let’s just tell them. We have all this stuff we can do now, right? So how do you roll that out?
Ben LeDonni 38:35
The good news is, we were good at marketing, so we were good at segmentation, right? Like that is a segmentation challenge. When you describe it, it’s the way we thought of it. You’re a small circle. First and foremost is my team. My team communicated that we needed to make sure, like we’re talking to our team about the value, about what’s in it for them, about why this is a good opportunity, why we still see a future, and why I did this. And then that extends out to customers and partners, right? Like, we may have even had a circle just for partners and talk to them differently, because our channel partners, like Ian, like, people that we have had relationships with for years, that we send work back and forth, had to know this. And then customers, and we may have segmented that into retained and everybody else, right?
And then we thought about the message to each one and the segmentation to each one, and how we communicate this over email and phone calls and all of that stuff, to make sure that it was really clear, like the narrative and the reason why we did this, and the rebrand was a part of that. I mean, we definitely had those conversations before rebranding, but then once you rebrand, it’s like, we have a new look and a new feel, and it puts us alongside the parent company, but ultimately, we’re going to deliver the same amount of value that we have, hopefully more, because we have editors that know their stuff and content creators that can help as well as a reach that we didn’t have before. And we just went into a meeting yesterday. This is another one of my favorite case studies, but Glass Enterprises, we went into a meeting with them yesterday, talking strategically about what they want to do next year, and part of what we’re going to do is layer in advertising on one of the brands that BNP Media owns to reach their audience.
We couldn’t do that before. We didn’t like that we didn’t have that relationship to know, could we have gone through a media buy and done all that? Yes, but now it’s just literally, hey, I know the data. I know the people that we want to reach. We have your personas. We’re going to build out a campaign and hit this audience here while we continue to do your CRM, your email marketing, your social media and all your other stuff over here.
Jeremy Weisz 40:42
It’s kind of a natural fit, because you’re just brought in is like, hey, from the strategy perspective, how do we get the most amount of eyeballs out there? And so you’re brought into these projects just because this is part of the strategy at this point.
Ben LeDonni 40:58
Yeah, I mean, I’m not saying it in an arrogant way, but it should be right. I mean, like you think about the two worlds colliding, as far as BNP Media and BNP Engage, but the audience that ENR, which is one of the bigger brands, has, or Architectural Record, another architectural brand that reach, that they have to their audience, that’s what you would call almost like an own audience, or first-party data type people, and that’s great, because they trust you. You can put content there, but that doesn’t exclude the fact that you still need to be talking to your customers, you still need to be doing your social media, your website content, all of those things. And so that’s a natural pairing, to be able to do both strategically.
Jeremy Weisz 41:39
Ben, if someone’s thinking about selling their company, either they’re selling them now or someday, what are some of the things they should be aware of or look out for? Maybe it’s something you wish you knew, or maybe it’s something like, I’m glad I did it this way.
Ben LeDonni 41:57
Oh, man, there’s a lot there. I mean, first of all, I’m happy to talk to anybody, that is, I like to help with stuff like that. And there’s nothing, no skin in the game for me, besides just being able to make sure somebody doesn’t see or feel pain that maybe I felt. I think the most important thing, I would say, is have a good relationship with the person that you’re working with that is going to buy you and test that out. I mean, we buy from who we know, like and trust, but on the other side of the acquisition is a relationship that you’re going to want to make sure is strong and healthy and like, I’m very blessed and lucky that Tag, who’s the CEO that acquired us. Like he and I have a great relationship. We built a relationship before the acquisition and now continue to have a really good relationship. I put that at the forefront because I don’t think anybody would want to work for a company or for somebody that they don’t really see the trust maybe, or see the value in them bringing to the table. So I mean to me that was the best thing, and still continues to be the best thing.
And I would say, I would look for that first and foremost, above numbers, above anything else. I mean, definitely the number stuff. One of the books we didn’t mention was Built To Sell, love Built To Sell would highly recommend reading it. There are probably two or three others that I had read or listened to over time, if you’re an agency owner, 2 Bob’s Podcast. I mean, he’s great. Well, both of them, both Bob’s, are great. But there’s so much stuff. I mean, know the valuation, know your numbers. I think the best advice I always give is to make sure you have a good financial person that has your data in order. Because you have to know your data, like through and through, and the company that’s acquiring you is going to ask a lot of questions about it, so it has to be organized in a way that it makes sense. So we were again blessed to have already been working with kind of an outsourced CFO team that had our data stitched together, zero, with a whole bunch of other tools that were working really hand in hand and a monthly meeting to go over the data so I understood it, because that was, again, that’s not an area that I learned.
I was a geek tech guy, so finance was kind of school of hard knocks for me. But yeah, I suppose are probably some of them. There’s probably 10 or 12 other ones I would say. I mean, you want to make sure you keep your team. You want to make sure the people that you work with are still trusting you, so make sure that you bring them into the conversations at the right time. I would say too.
Jeremy Weisz 44:25
Who are some of the you mentioned, kind of financial people, who are some of the trusted professionals that were key on your, doesn’t have to be on your immediate team, but like that you sourced that war is important in the acquisition process for you.
Ben LeDonni 44:40
Yeah. So we had a company that we worked with that was an outsourced CFO team. Like I said, the woman’s name I worked with was Christine. She owns the company Walsh. Is the name of the company. Walsh, I don’t know if it’s financial or Walsh accounting, but Christine Walsh founded it smaller team, like, I said, very technical. The one thing she said to me is, we are all ex forensic accountants, so that’s the approach that we take. And that was the thing that was like, this is worth it for me. So we went from having a bookkeeper that was couple $100 a month to keep QuickBooks up to date and felt like a very like, every time you pay it, it’s like, I’m doing this just for taxes. I don’t know why I care to do this, to being like a no, get your data in order, and it will help you drive decisions about what’s your most profitable customers, which products are doing the best, which teams are making you the most money, like all that stuff that is essential.
So I would say Walsh was huge. I would also say, I mean, you need a business coach. Every business leader needs to bounce ideas off of somebody. So be it a tab group, Vistage chair, even some of the, I know a lot of people trust some of the advisories, like the agency groups as kind of the business coaches. So there are ones that are out there. They go to masterminds and stuff like that. You need something like that that helps balance the numbers against the future and where you’re going, drive the engineering-led stuff forward as far as what they’re seeing in the market. But all that’s really important.
Jeremy Weisz 46:07
Love it. Ben, I want to be the first one to thank you. This has been fantastic. Just a lot of gems in here. I want to encourage people to check out bnpengage.com, to learn more and check out more episodes of the podcast, and we’ll see everyone next time. Ben, thanks so much.
Ben LeDonni 46:27
Oh, thank you Dr Jeremy, appreciate it very much.
Jeremy Weisz 46:30
Thanks everyone.
