Search Interviews:

Jeremy Weisz  14:52

What did that look like on a daily basis? Like, just maybe get a little granular with me. You go in. I mean, I don’t know. Other people are coming. Mean, eight, you were coming at five, what did that ambition hustle look like on a daily basis?

Travis Hoechlin  15:05

Yeah. So I figured everyone’s everyone at best, is doing the nine to five gig, right? And this is pre kids, so it made it made it easier. You know, when I come back at 567, whatever, have dinner with the wife and maybe watch a little TV. And then there’s always that night shift, from 10 to midnight or one two in the morning. And I figured, I’m turning over more rocks than everybody else at that time. And kind of like…

Jeremy Weisz  15:34

Were you just sending emails? How were you?

Travis Hoechlin  15:38

Yeah, so we’re so when I was at the other place, we had a small territory. I’m in Orange County. Orange County, California, and my territory was probably 20 minutes into in from driving Southern California, it could be an hour and a half, depending on traffic time, but essentially with no traffic 20 minutes. So I just mapped out every law firm in that territory, and they said there was 1200 law firms in my territory, or whatever they said it was. And I just kind of did the math. I go, well, if I go knock on 100 doors a month, I’ll get there. I think there’s actually 2400 so I was like, okay, if I go knock on 2400 doors, if I knock on 100 100 a month, or 200 a month, I’ll, in the next year or two, I’ll met everybody, and then, so that was number one. Most people won’t do that to go and physically knock on the door. Go park your car.

Jeremy Weisz  16:35

What did you say when you went up there?

Travis Hoechlin  16:38

Just myself, say, hey, listen, I you looking for more? Are you looking for more business? Who says no to that, right? And if they do, they want you out of there. So might as well leave, right? And so it’s usually, are you guys looking for additional clients? If the answer was yes, then it’s a good thing, I walked in here. Can I get 20 minutes of your time? I need to know what you want, where you want it from, and how much of you want, and I don’t. I have more answers and questions at this point. And if you’re willing to give me 20 minutes, I’ll go back to my team, and we’ll, I’ll come back a few days from now, and I’ll show you how to accomplish that.

If it’s the right fit for you, great. If not, you’ll hopefully remember me when the time is it is good, and you’re ready to go. And just that. I mean most of because in our industry, everyone’s loving emails and making phone calls and doing all that thing. I’d rather go knock on 10 doors and make 100 phone calls. I’m going to get a lot further with that just because I’m six four, 6,3, 6’4, and less likely that some Secretary is going to tell me to buzz off in person than over the phone.

Jeremy Weisz  17:52

It’s also more personal. I mean, you see someone face to face.

Travis Hoechlin  17:55

bsolutely and, like I said, our target markets that one to five, one to 10 attorneys, most of them being solo. When I walk in the door, they’re probably sitting right there. And so at least you can get a clear no instead of let me take a message, you know, type of thing that gets you nowhere.

Jeremy Weisz  18:15

Travis, a 20-minute area doesn’t seem big to me. When you started becoming number one salesperson at this company. Did they expand your geographic area? No, they didn’t. You’d have the same area.

Travis Hoechlin  18:27

That’s not how corporate America works, right? It’s smaller territory, twice the quota, you know, all that good stuff.

Jeremy Weisz  18:34

You did it year after year, even with that same.

Travis Hoechlin  18:39

Yeah, and this is where I’ve always hung my hat, in sales, if you do the right thing for folks, you’re going to get referrals. They’re going to buy more stuff, and if it isn’t working, shoot them straight, like we’re in marketing. Not every news flash, everything doesn’t work all the time. You know what I mean. But if you’re straight up with folks and tell them the truth, and they know you least gave it everything you got, like they’re at least going to respect you. And so I heard one of my mentors told me when I first started that job, and it was really good advice. They said, listen your territories, these are either a asset or a liability, and sell, sell accordingly, right? And if you kind of poop where you sleep, you’re going to have a quick tenure here, you know? And so I just made sure I did the right thing by people all the time, as much as I could and every time. And I was able to stay there for quite some time. And I could have been there, continued to be there, if it wasn’t for bigger ambitions on my part.

Jeremy Weisz  19:47

Do you have any favorite resources, like books, podcasts, from like a sales perspective that you consider important throughout the years?

Travis Hoechlin  19:58

Man, $100 Million Leads. Yeah, that one’s really good. You know, all you about goodie is How to Win Friends and Influence People. That one, one of my favorites. I love that somebody. Yeah, someone told me a long time ago, read that once a year. And I think, that’s a solid piece of advice. But yeah, there’s, there’s a ton of podcasts. You know, there’s, there’s a ton of them out there. Names of escaping me. But anyway, yeah, there.

Jeremy Weisz  20:34

If you think of them, you shout them out because I am, and I’m sure people are interested in the resources that you love, talk about building a sales team. So you go from being top salesperson, yep, to now building a sales team and what’s worked and what hasn’t worked?

Travis Hoechlin  20:55

Yeah. So we’ve been fortunate that, um, once again, I think doing the right thing, treating people with respect, performing at a high level, and always being willing to answer the phone and help people like and pulling people up instead of pushing them down, even when they’re your competitors, has worked out very, very well for us. And so we’ve been lucky enough to not really have to go hunt for new sales folks. Many folks in this industry and where we used to work have come to us. In fact, we’ve been able to just kind of cherry-pick who we want to work with, and we know kind of the track record that they. I heard somebody on a podcast say that your first 100 hires are and we’re not there yet.

We have like 47 team members, but your first 100 hires are super, super important, and to make sure you’re hiring great people, and basically, no matter what the cost is, to some degree. If a talent comes down, knocking on our doorstep, we’re going to find a way to get them as part of the team. There’s no question. And so the sales, sales team, part of it, we’re looking for people of high motors, super competitive, lucky enough to work, be able to cherry pick people who are already in this industry and have relationships, and they’re able to come over here and supersize that with the amount of leads and things that they didn’t get other places that they’ve seen humongous success. And now that’s kind of the method to our madness So far.

Jeremy Weisz  22:43

What about from a division of labor? You have a few partners. How do you decide who’s going to work  on what part of the business?

Travis Hoechlin  22:53

Well, in the beginning, it kind of looked like a, I have two daughters that are five and seven. I just turned eight. If you ever seen a five-year-olds play soccer, they call it right. The ball goes there, and they all bunch together, and that was much what our division of labor looked like early on. But then as time went on, we learned a bit more. We’ve kind of found our groove. I’m in charge of sales. Other business partner, George is kind of the brains behind the operation as far as SEO and things of that nature. And my other partner, who you’ve met, Bill Bryant, he’s great at sales as well, but he’s also more organized than I. So he takes care of all the payroll and operations and all that kind of thing. So it’s been a work in progress, certainly, and we have more work to do, but that’s kind of how it’s worked out, and we complement each other, in my opinion, very, very well.

Jeremy Weisz  23:56

Talk about navigating partnerships. I’ve heard a lot of people have had problems and shy away from them. What have you found has worked with your partners?

Travis Hoechlin  24:12

So I’ve gotten kind of lucky in that respect. Bo and I have had the same job since we were 23, our first jobs were selling cell phones, then sold mortgages a number of different places. Then we sold, what else did we sell, mortgage a few different places, and then we sold lawyer marketing, and then we owned a mortgage company, and then own so we’ve had the same our resumes looked identical. If we were ever, God forbid, have to go get another job, son of man, they’d be like you copied off of his test or vice versa, right? My other partner, before we all got married, jeez, 15 years ago, he was my roommate. And after college actually just got a mutual friend when you’re single and whatever.

There was three of us our roommates, and then he and I became roommates again, and it was always interesting, like he was one of the head marketing folks at a humongous one of the top two biggest mortgage companies in the world. And so it’s kind of a match made in heaven. Many late-night silver beers, talking about that one day we were going to create this. And it kind of just worked out. So I got lucky in that sense. I didn’t have to go in other businesses. I’ve, I’ve had not so great a partners, but this one, it was kind of, I’m working with friends. I know they do that, but it’s worked out so far.

Jeremy Weisz  25:48

It worked for you. What position were you in baseball?

Travis Hoechlin  25:52

I played first and third. Okay, first and third base.

Jeremy Weisz  25:55

I was gonna guess first. What about from a sales training perspective, it seems like the people you bring on are also seasoned. So is there like, what’s the onboarding like for you? It seems like maybe they’re already experienced. Or do you have a specialized onboarding or training that you like to take people through?

Travis Hoechlin  26:18

Yeah, once again, for us, it was, it was a bit unique and advantageous that they were seasoned and they already, I don’t think there’s a salesperson on my team that has less than 15 years’ experience selling the lawyers. So they know the landscape. What they didn’t know is the more advanced product and services that we have then where they came from, right? And so it’s just about getting them up to speed with that, and not, we have all kinds of tools that they never had before, and there’s all kinds of technical stuff that they never knew and didn’t know was out there and that we incorporate, which is why our clients do so well. But for us, I mean, the key, we have an amazing product, there’s no question about it, but equally as amazing as our sales team, and I think that’s why we’ve been no question not I think there’s no question.

That’s why we’ve grown so quickly. And so it’s just kind of coaching them up, and listen, they all are equally as good as I am. I’m not saying I’m better by any stretch, but I do have a skill set there where, with this particular product, how to not geek out on the lawyers or the or the clients, right? And to talk in layman’s terms and make sure they understand it and so, and I always give them the analogy of, like, Listen, I don’t know anything about cars, right? And when I take my car in to get oil change, of course, every time they come out with some type of belt or something that’s broken, the flux capacitor is not working, or the blinker fluids out, or whatever. And they can just see it, and they come out, and they go, this is dirty, or this should look like this. And, and I just, is my car gonna blow up on the way home? You know what I mean? Like, I just want, I don’t want out of there so fast. And if they would just talk in layman terms and shoot me straight, I’d probably buy what they’re selling.

I use that as an example of when we’re selling to attorneys, like, they don’t know that they’re super, super smart individuals in their industry, in our industry, more times than not, they don’t know this stuff, and in a confused mind, says, let me think about it, right? And so how do we communicate with them that shows them we know what the heck we’re talking about, and we’re here to help them and speak to them in their terms, to make them feel comfortable. And so that bit from a training process is what the message I try to get over to my team, and they’re all amazing. So with all due respect, I offer tidbits, but I listen you’ve got to your place in this world at a high level. So if I can make little tweaks, fantastic. If you go with what you do, that’s great, too.

Jeremy Weisz  29:28

Travis, the evolution of your services. When you first started, were you, I know, because can you come from a Fortune 500 they have big teams. They can do everything, right? How did you start? What did you first start selling from a services perspective?

Travis Hoechlin  29:46

It was websites. And there wasn’t our local service ads at the time, but it was websites, SEO and PPC and social media.

Jeremy Weisz  29:54

So it was all from the get-go.

Travis Hoechlin  29:56

It was because that’s what we essentially sold to. Where we came from. So a lot of the times we worked with at the past place, you know, I didn’t know if they we left thinking, well, maybe a few of them will come with us. You never know if they’re married to the brand, or they like you, or whatever. And I wasn’t ignorant enough to think that everybody was there because of me. They’re with a big company, but it turned out that wasn’t the case that they wanted. They came with me because they trusted me. They had no idea who was behind the scenes at some big old company. And once we could show them that you’re going to get a lot better service, a lot more attention, it was really a flood of people that came our way.

Jeremy Weisz  30:49

Did you have to staff up really quickly, then right away?

Travis Hoechlin  30:53

When we first started, very like, how do we get a website made and off the ground? Right? Because my best partner, George, didn’t come over till a year later. We partnered up with some outsourcing that we could basically lead everybody to. I mean, they were white label type of situation, and we were able to just to then go sell. And then, as we grew, we wanted to make sure the product was better and better and better. And so at this point, everything’s in-house. And so we never took any loans, we never took out any debt. We just grew. We bootstrapped it, and put more of the money back into the business than we did our pockets as we grew and able to make sure we had great talent and provided a great process. And so that’s kind of how we grew.

And I would do it that exact way if I did it again, because we didn’t have to do any of that hiring, hiring a bunch of people right out of the gate when we couldn’t afford to do so. And we found folks that were very, very talented, that there’s a bunch of people in our industry that are very, very good at making the widget but can’t sell. And at that particular time, we were very good at selling and couldn’t make the widget. So it’s kind of a match made in heaven. I always knew that I can go find our own people to make the widget at some point, we’re very upfront with what our goals were, and so there was no hard feelings or what have you. And then we’re able to grow enough to bring George over, get him out of his day job. And then I was just like pouring rocket fuel on this thing, and it’s been awesome ever since.

Jeremy Weisz  32:40

What about mistakes. Because I think I know you’re you serve law firms, right, but these same mistakes transcend across any business. And I know I’ve heard you talk about fundamentals and really making sure the fundamentals are there, one of those things when you’re talking to companies, because you could drive all the traffic leads and everything to them. But it was surprising, I think you said something like, out of 100 calls, maybe 30 go unanswered, right? And then people are wondering why they’re not getting business. So talk about some of those biggest mistakes, and maybe start with just as simple as picking up the phone.

Travis Hoechlin  33:32

Yeah. So when you’re working with a small business, right? They’re, you know, solo practitioners, a lot of times are the, to use a restaurant analogy, they’re the host, they’re the waiter, they’re the manager, they’re the cook, you know? They’re the bartender, they’re the whole thing. And lawyers, depending on the type of law, they’re in court a lot, right? So if you’re in court, you’re not telling the judge, hey, hold on, my phone’s ringing, type of thing. And so we realize really quickly, even though it’s not in our job description and it’s above our pay grade to get involved in this, that we have to coach them up and have strategic partners that help them with answering the phone, answering services, chat, text, all those types of things. Because you’re right, I would say this not a vetted number. But we work with over 400 firms, and firms, and I don’t know how many phone calls, 10s of 1000s of phone calls are coming into our clients every single month. Probably 60.

The average firm answers the phone about 65% of the time. And so no matter what I tell the firms the beginning, and this is part of our onboarding process, that we won’t work with them if they’re not willing to improve that, right? And we don’t know going into it, but I’ll ask them, and we’re kind of a lean-in type of agency. And I said, listen, we will Secret Shop Your office. We record all the phone calls, and until you tell us otherwise, if you’re awful at answering the phone. We’re going to tell you, because, let me tell you, everything we do is month to month. So we have to earn our paycheck every month. And if you’re not answering the phone, our marketing, I don’t care how good my marketing is, you’re going to be not happy, and you’re going to quit. And then now my reputation is on the line, and you’re going to be unhappy. So let’s fix that and be willing to be coachable. Here I tell folks all the time, if something’s not working, the easiest solution, the solution, I hope it is, is that we did something wrong, because I can fix that quickly, right. When it’s on their side, I’m the baton has passed, and they need to be able to be willing to do that.

So we get involved and we, we set them up with answering service. I tell them, Listen, most firms, this is a few $100 fix, right? An answering service, 3, 4, 5, 6, $700, depending on the volume of calls. Like, just for someone to take a message, and then have them text you the chance transcript, and you make the decision whether that’s, uh, hey, I need to jump on the phone right now and call that client back, or it’s, hey, I can call them back tomorrow type of thing, because people aren’t but attorneys don’t realize people aren’t waiting around. Most attorneys think that their reputation is bigger than it is. And I tell people, if I’m marketing for you, and they went online, they don’t know any attorneys, or at least they exhausted the ones they do know. So now they’re talking to strangers, and we’re in a fast-food society, right? And if you’re not answering the phone, they’re hanging up and calling the next one on the list. So we are pretty bold in that kind of thing, because it’s what’s best for them, and no one, not once in my 15 years of doing this as an attorney, walked in and said, You know what? I’m terrible at intake, there’s never any self-awareness of this.

So it’s usually a very eye-opening, experience or palm-to-forehead, type of event, when I play them a few phone calls and they go, this is how my secretary is answering the phone, you know, yeah, what do you want? You know, like, what, like, what, what are we doing here? Well, yeah, so, yeah, that’s, that’s the biggest one, for sure.

Jeremy Weisz  37:19

Some of your favorite tools in software. I’ve heard you mention things like call rail. I don’t know if you have your favorites.

Travis Hoechlin  37:29

I’ll go call rail just because I can’t tell you how many accounts that that saved or helped just by going, being on a Zoom call, and they go, it’s not working. Oh, we brought you okay, we it says, here you got 63 phone calls. You didn’t sign up anybody. What are the chances that we went over 63, let’s go ahead and listen to a few of these. And we, oh, wow, I didn’t know that came from you guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was the case. That was worth 10 grand. Okay, well, you’re spending four So, okay, we’re already in a positive ROI numbers here. Let’s listen to the next one, that type of thing. So that that is why you wouldn’t invest in that as an agency is beyond me. I mean, where I was before they didn’t invest in these kind of things.

I’m like, what now, knowing I’m like, you know me, you’re not tracking everything, how do you go by, if you’re not tracking your phone calls, and know what you are getting or not getting, then you’re just going off a gut feel, I don’t feel like it’s working. What does that mean? You know what I mean? Like, the amount of times I’ve heard that in my career is amazing. I had a buck for every time I heard that, or that I do, or even maybe sometimes, even worse, yeah, I feel like it’s working. Like, that’s not help. You know what I mean? Where do we go from here? Like, hopefully you don’t have a bad day tomorrow.

Jeremy Weisz  38:57

What are your thoughts on live chat, we’ll talk about law firms, and then talk about agencies too, but start with law firm, because, like, if they’re not answering the phone, then now they have to have someone answer live chat, right? So what are your thoughts?

Travis Hoechlin  39:12

There are some really good ones out there, so I’m a huge fan, and I’ll tell you why. For our let’s talk about law firms. What I tell lawyers is this, nobody wants to call you, right? No, no one thinks. Man, next month, I hope I have to call a lawyer. You know, I’m saying. Like, that’s they know this, right? And then, and then I tell them that most folks don’t know how you charge, right? They think it’s like the taxi cab that you say hello and the meter starts running, and most of them are probably not. Your clients aren’t as educated as you, and that’s really, really intimidating, right? So all those three things, three, four things people don’t want to pick up the phone, right? So let them have another way, another door into your office, right? And so having chat, and I will tell you, especially the younger generation. Listen, I have a younger brother who works for me, and he’s 13 years younger than I, and I give him hell about this all the time.

Many times I will call him because I need something, or, Hey, we’re gonna have a beer, or I need something for work, or whatever it may be. And he doesn’t answer the phone, and I hang up and immediately text him, and he goes, yeah, I’ll be there in 10 minutes. I’m like, what? Okay, so my point of that is, is like, there’s a younger generation that much rather text or chat or is something of that nature, DM, then pick up the phone and call. So if we know that, I don’t know the stats off time I knew those at one point, but if we know that’s a big, big portion of society right now, and that younger generation is not so young anymore, right? And those are going to be your clientele. Why would you not have that big old door on your office and let them in that way, if that’s how they want to get there? And so, then, so it’s not a question of if you should have it. Then, then the next one is, if you’re manning it, it’s going to be no different than your phone.

So there are services you either hire internally, or there’s great services out there. Juvo is a really good one, by the way. Ted over there, amazing dude, a friend who we recommend people to do, to contact, but it’s all US-based real time, that kind of thing. And there’s stats out there increases your the number of clients you sign up from your marketing like, somewhere upwards of 30% I’ve heard bigger numbers than that, but let’s say it’s 30% that’s a big, big, stinking number. So absolutely, absolutely, you better have that on there some type of chat.

Jeremy Weisz  39:18

What are some of the ones you’ve heard are good that people could test out from like, a live chat perspective?

Travis Hoechlin  40:13

Yeah. Juvo is the one. The kind of the go-to. They charge by lead. They’ll give you a 330 I’m totally plugging him right now. But Engage is another one. I’m trying to think those are the ones that have live people answering, and then there’s a gazillion of them that they’re AI bots and things of that nature. And I’m like, this is not a big expenditure we’re talking about. Like, there’s places to save money. And especially in the legal field, like, I’m sure AI will get there, and then maybe there’s, as we’re sitting here in September 11 2024 I’m sure this is not going to age well, but, you know, I wouldn’t put AI in charge of my intake at this point. At this speed, maybe that’s different next week, but it’s not that. It’s hardly that expensive, and especially for our clients, that cases are worth 10, 20, 30, 50, 70, $100,000, 7 figures like, come on, you got to get one case a year to justify that. So why would you not do that?

Jeremy Weisz  43:17

Travis, a little bit more on, so people can understand what you do. You have a criminal defense lawyer in New York and talk about that.

Travis Hoechlin  43:23

Yeah. So we handle we, we all practice areas, personal injury, criminal, family, estate planning, immigration, employment, you name it, we do it. We’ve done it. We’ll do it again, so that that part will handle any type of practice area. And really, it really comes down to what I tell folks all the time is like, listen, we have, we have three types of it really is finding out a custom program for you for that firm, because not everybody has the same need. There’s like the firm we were talking about that wants to dominate New York and the five boroughs that we bring 40,000 visitors to, and hundreds of phone calls and all that kind of stuff. And he has the budget to do that, right and we certainly can, you have the biggest budget in the world. We can put that to good use, and you’ll get a positive return. And you want to tackle multiple states or things of that nature, we have those type of clients, right?

And then we have, on the other hand, like, you know, working with a lot of solo practitioners, they typically have a limited budget, and they typically come to me with some type of story, like, hey, I got X amount of dollars. They call it like, there’s a DUI firm in LA that came to us and goes, listen, I got like $3,500 bucks a month to spend. How would you spend it? My website’s kind of garbage. I need to spruce that up a bit. And it was important for me to understand where he was, because, as we all know, SEO takes some time. So if I were to take that whole. $3,500 especially where he was starting, when he went showing up, and he wouldn’t show up in the North Pole for anything, right, like so he’s in a competitive market. So the strategy that we use was, okay, let’s use 1000 bucks of your money to spruce up the website. It’s not going to change your world by any stretch, but we’re going to lay out foundation as far as content, backlinks and so forth. But where we’re going to move the needle is we’re going to use local service ads.

So we took the other 2500 bucks and put it into local service ads. And at the time it was like 150 bucks a call. I think it was memory serves. Anyway, he spent, he got about 17 phone calls. And ended up signing up seven of those. And his average DUI, he charges 3500 bucks for a DUI client. So off of that $3,500 span on month one, he was able to make 24 or five. Now if I wouldn’t have strategized that way, because couple things I knew he didn’t have, he I was going to lose his patience, and he was going to run out of money potentially if I put it all into SEO, because they’re going to take me about a year, even with that kind of budget, even bigger budget to really get the needle to move, and get the phone ringing. So I knew local service ads he would get calls right away and get and bring cash flow into the business is what he needed, right? And then we can grow it from there. And since then, we’ve grown it quite substantially. Is not only from a result standpoint, budget standpoint, and all that kind of thing, but that is what was best, because we took the time to listen to what his needs were, understood his business and how he gets paid, and put him into a strategy where he was going to see success. And I literally just got to, he doubled his budget last month.

This was and I just had the best month of my career. I appreciate you. And then those are the best, obviously, the best text in the world to get from clients. And so it’s, it’s really getting down, rolling up your sleeves, and understanding, not trying to just fit them into a box, but understanding what they need and how best to get them there.

Jeremy Weisz  43:29

Yeah, if I were him, I would 10 times my budget, spending $2,500 and doing close to $25,000 yeah, why double it? No, that’s amazing. Yeah. Travis, first of all, I want to be the first one to thank you. Thanks for sharing your journey, your lessons. I love hearing it. I want to everyone to check out rizeupmedia.com and more episodes of the podcast and Travis, thanks so much.

Travis Hoechlin  47:43

Appreciate you. Jeremy, thanks for having me.

Jeremy Weisz  47:45

Thanks everyone.