Jeremy Weisz 15:36
What is in your mind, ready? What’s I don’t know, if as a checklist of things you want them to have or see before you put them in front of that investor.
John Driscoll 15:45
For me, when you’re an early-stage founder, I think you have to have realistic expectations. And when you’re talking to a VC or something, they can tell when you’re kind of starry-eyed and you have this really misunderstanding of how startup works and how that process works. And so what I try to do is really shoot people straight so that they’re prepared. Because if they’re believing that common narrative that they’re going to be successful overnight, all they have to have is a good idea to raise money and all they need to do is get this product to the market, and then the market’s going to eat it up.
It’s going to be really easy if they are saying things like that, and you can see it in the undertones of the conversation from a founder, then the investor is going to pick up on that really, really fast, because they’re just too experienced. They’re going to pick up on all of that, and they have no chance to raise money with that person. So investors like people are realistic and shoot you straight. And I’ve heard questions like, What are you most concerned about out in the market? And the founder would say something like, oh, I’m not concerned at all. I’m like, geez, that’s not good. You should be very concerned.
If you’re not scared a little bit, you know. So they think they thought that the overconfidence would somehow sell the investor, and all they did is they did the opposite. They looked completely like they had no idea what they were really getting themselves into.
Jeremy Weisz 15:52
Yeah. It looks like they haven’t done the research, or at least try to do research.
John Driscoll 17:22
I think it’s research, but it’s also just like, you know, there’s this thing that people have, and I’ve heard it so many times like, oh, God told me, or I felt it in my gut. Or they’ll just, they have this mystical idea of that they’re destined for this successful thing, and you’re not, I’m sorry you’re not. You have to work hard. You better have realistic ideas and strategies on how you’re going to get there, and you better be willing to change them when they’re not working. And if you are not a grinder and you’re not a hustler, you just don’t belong in a startup game.
Jeremy Weisz 18:00
Yeah, it takes a lot John, with some of these apps, to create these apps. Talk about the team that you’ve built over the years?
John Driscoll 18:11
Yeah. So I’ve really, really focused highly on US-based talent and trying to build at the highest level of quality. And the reason why is because I think the consumer can tell when you build a really, really good product, as opposed to a, what we call a half-assed product, as we say, sorry. I hope you could say that in your show, but I would just say we really, we really promote building something smaller, not something cheap. And so we try to have really deliberate design. We take you through the process you’re involved in every step of the way. We’re not just building it ourselves, and it’s very collaborative. And that process has been dialed in for well over a decade.
And that by putting everybody physically in the room together in California, like a lot of people fly in and see us, and they spend time with us, and then to methodically work through a process that’s tested over time, you get good work out of that. You really get to the core of the problem, asking hard questions. And so getting those people in and working with them, with the founder, it’s like day one, they have a pro team, and most people can’t do that on their own. That would have taken them a decade to develop that kind of a team, where I kind of did it for you, and that’s kind of a big part of what you’re buying when you work with us.
Jeremy Weisz 19:42
Talk about the hiring process for a second.
John Driscoll 19:45
Yeah, you go through several stages. First of all, let’s say you’re a programmer, a developer by trade. We would say, oh, we want to see what you’ve done. Have you created anything? And you have to start as a junior developer, so you have to work under a developer and a senior developer. So you have to go through these processes once you actually work with us. But you go through that, we look over your code, we review quality of your work, all that kind of stuff. And then you eventually go to a cultural interview, which means that we have to go, hey, will you fit into this culture?
Because we find sometimes that’s the interview that people don’t pass, like they’re not going to fit in, like they like to be a loner, they don’t want to work with people, they don’t want to collaborate. That’s just not for us. That’s not going to work really well with us. So we put them through several stages to get there, and then they have to work their way up once they actually are with us, to become eventually, senior developers and those people have been with us. We’ve lost very, very few over the years just because they’re kind of almost lifers with us.
Jeremy Weisz 20:52
We were talking before we hit record, about scaling and with an agency, sometimes that means with people. So it’s tough, and projects are coming in. It sounds like you have, like, a really constant flow, but other times, I don’t know, well, I mentioned whatever you get a PGA calling and you have this huge project you have to do. How do you staff up and down depending on even if you get the same number of projects, they’re probably various degrees of difficulty.
John Driscoll 21:20
Yeah, I think the best way is to have a core group that you never have to scale down with, and then you layer on contractors and people beyond that, right? But that should be your top layer of skills, not something that you have, you know. So you’re really never scaling back. You’re just adding on maybe a little bit of your contractor layer. And so it’s kind of like a layered pie, right, like, or a layered cake or something. And you have, like, your core group, your leadership, and then you have these other things that maybe you outsource, because you don’t do that in-house, and that kind of, figuring out that combination is not easy.
I definitely know that it’s challenging, but I think everybody’s got to find that combination so that they can, it’s like McDonald’s. They want to make sure that their burger everywhere is exactly the same burger. You kind of have to get to that point where no matter who the team works with. It’s the same product every time. That’s not an easy combo to get down. It takes a lot of trial and error, for sure. Yeah, I got to be a grinder and a hustler too.
Jeremy Weisz 22:30
From a milestone perspective, you started many years ago. What was the first major milestone, from a client perspective with Naked Development?
John Driscoll 22:40
I would say early on, when we first started making apps, that first couple of years, it was the wild, wild west. Nobody even knew if native apps would live or extend beyond web apps. There was a big debate in those days, whether native apps were going to win over. And so when that was clear and it looked like native was here to stay, then we started to really make a lot more native apps. But before that, everybody was just trying to make the web mobile-friendly in the early days, like that was the biggest problem.
And so I would say the first milestone was like us, like leaning into native and realize, hey, the App Store is going to be here. We’re going to figure that out. And we started making, we got approached by this startup, and they said to us, hey, we don’t have a lot of money. We’re like, well, why are we talking then? Yeah, like, we don’t have a lot of money, but they had this idea to work on this medical software for hospitals. And I said, well, that seems like that’s impossible if you don’t have a lot of money. He goes, Well, we’re gonna raise money.
And I’d never been involved in raising money ever. I’d always bootstrapped everything. I never seen anything like that. And so they said, hey, we’ll pay you $15,000 to just design the app, and then we’re gonna go raise money. And they paid us $15,000, we designed the app, but I never thought I’d ever see them again. And they came back to us and they said they had a million dollars to work with. And we were like, geez, you went from that you thought that the thing we made, you raised a million dollars. And that was the first million-dollar raise I ever saw.
And then we made the platform for, it was a big platform cost about half a million dollars to build, and they went to market, and then we were with them for a couple of years in that process, and they had managed to raise another ten million like they really started killing it. And I was like, wow, learning that process taught me so much, and I wish I’d gotten a piece of that company, but I didn’t. And so I learned a lot about what to do and what not to do. And one thing I learned is don’t let a company go that well and not own a piece of it. I don’t let that happen anymore, but I did in those days, and I didn’t have any clue how to, you know, partner up with people like that.
And so now that just taught me so much about how to create a program that could serve people in that same manner. And so we started to help people to raise money after that, we just patterned our whole system after what we experienced with that company and so. And now, everything we do is kind of based on a lot of those things we learned in those, you know, first three years of working with that startup, yeah.
Jeremy Weisz 22:43
I take it. They had a big exit then.
John Driscoll 25:12
They did. It’s rumored to be about a half a billion. It’s undisclosed, but it was an acquisition. And, yeah, it was a big one.
Jeremy Weisz 25:57
Yeah, talk about the equity piece, John, so now, how do you think about or structure that I could see a double-edged sword there where, yeah, John, we don’t want we want to pay you less because we’re gonna give you equity, and then you’re taking a risk. But so how do you smile? I’ll let you tell your thoughts on structuring equity.
John Driscoll 26:16
The moment I mentioned this on any program, I almost regret it, because I’ll get all these emails after that. They’re saying, hey, we’d love to have you work with us, you know. And I’m like, that’s not how it works. Let me explain. So, yeah, I’ll explain how it actually works. So we don’t do early investment with things. We formed a company called Naked Ventures to really support our equity positions in companies, and we were formalizing as an actual VC now, but what we do is, as we work together, we will see that the relationship’s really good.
That’s the first thing we want to see. We feel like you’re a great founder. We believe in you. We know that you’re going to get there with or without us. And so if that’s the case, I’d rather you get there with me, not without me. So normally, we will talk about what that looks like. It will take an equity position. Normally, I will take a board seat in that case, and then I’ll advise you a lot for free in that process, and I might introduce you to raise some money. We’ve often provided. We just actually did this with one of our partners, where we staffed up their people.
And I will tell you these founders who I’ve gone this far with, and we’ve spent this many years with, they become, like my best friends, like we spend so much time together, and they call me when they’re not feeling good. They basically ask me the things that they can’t tell maybe the rest of their board or their employees, right? And they’re nervous, what do I do? They get into some really tough positions, and they need somebody that’s been there before to say, hey, this is what I would do in this case, and so that has been a really, really great program for them and for us, and we’ve seen a ton of success with the companies we’ve worked with, yeah.
Jeremy Weisz 28:16
So typically it won’t start off. Maybe the initial project won’t there won’t be equity, but they may, it just may be that relationship, where you help them with the app development and strategy and everything else, and from there, as you work with them over a number of years, then you may talk about some kind of equity stake and how that would work.
John Driscoll 28:38
Yeah, and we’ve actually written checks, we’ve deferred invoices. We’ve bridged companies, you know, like say that they’re close to getting their series A and we know they’re going to get it. We will bridge defer invoices and staff them for a while. We’ve done all kinds of creative ways to try to come alongside that company, to get them there. And there’s a lot of equity that they save in the process. So actually there’s a big incentive for them to give me that equity, because they’re going to get to their series A and their valuation is going to double, and that stock’s going to go through the roof at that point.
And so, I kind of help structure a deal once we get there and say, hey, I think this is what a deal that makes sense. And I have all incentive not to blow up their cap table and keep them in a good position, because I want them to raise their series A I want them to get to the finish line. And so, it’s really, yeah, it becomes a real partnership at that point. And it’s always a little different, because everybody’s got different needs. But I would say, yeah, we look at all angles for sure.
Jeremy Weisz 29:48
I feel like, John correct me, it also may help save certain staffing needs, like, if they didn’t have you, maybe they’d have to hire a CTO and development team, and possibly I could see how, if you had equity, that looks good to the next investment like, well, this is just like some company you’re using. What if they go away? And you could tell me if I’m wrong on this, but presenting that your company does have equity, I don’t know if that sheds makes it in a better light for when they are raising money that you have some investment.
John Driscoll 30:23
It’s a huge advantage. Yeah, so because they’re working with us, and then we’re on the cap table. There is some credibility. Just like, you know, we’re clearly not Y Combinator, but if you had Y Combinator on your cap table, it’s obvious who’s not going to invest in that company. We are not those guys, but I would say, so it’s, I’m not making a comparison for everybody listening. I’m just saying…
Jeremy Weisz 30:46
I just had a usually StoryLane the other day. We talked about it, because they are Y Combinator company, and how that works. So it’s very interesting.
John Driscoll 30:59
Yeah, it really does your partners that are on your cap table play a big part as you are raising money. And I think we bring some credibility because of the projects we’ve worked on and that they’ve seen us have big exits, and they’ve seen us do this multiple times. So we have a track record, and if you don’t have one, you get to kind of piggyback on ours.
Jeremy Weisz 31:21
I mentioned attracting and maintaining relationships with the high-profile clients, and I know one of those people has been Peter Thiel.
John Driscoll 31:34
Inadvertently, yes, yeah.
Jeremy Weisz 31:35
So what’s been maybe a story around Peter in your experience?
John Driscoll 31:42
Well, so to be clear, I don’t know Peter that well, we’re not like buddies or anything. I have other billionaires I’m pretty good friends with, but that he’s definitely a different kind of guy. So, but I was introduced to him through a client that actually raised money, and Peter invested in that company. And so this just goes to show you, you never know how you’re going to meet someone. You’re working with a client, and you don’t know who they are. And this has happened to me several times, and all of a sudden there’s this big billionaire behind their organization that you had no idea.
And so you treat everybody the same, and you try to value everybody’s time, because you never know what’s coming. And so I got invited to an event at Peter’s house. And so I got to go up there and talk to him about the product, and meet him in person and spend a little bit of time with him. And so you get to go, oh, that’s really an interesting contact. And so it’s funny, because I ran into one of his buddies the other day at Mastros when we were just out to dinner.
And so, like, you’re just kind of in these circles, and that happens, and you don’t ask them for things, please people, if you do meet these people, don’t ask them for stuff. You’re going to be put on the blacklist really fast if you do that. You have to kind of play it cool. I guess you got to do it. And then there’s going to be a day when you want to talk to them about something, and you think it’s worth their time, and you ask at that point. And so I think these relationships take years and years and years to cultivate, and you have to be okay with that.
And then when the right moment comes and you go, this is a good fit for Peter, I can make the call, and I want to be able to make that call when it’s necessary. But it doesn’t mean you do it right away. And I that’s the part that people miss, is when you get in the room, I see people just kind of misuse these relationships. And I know that all these people I’ve maintained relationships with, I can call them at any point and they’re going to listen, you know, for the most part, they’re going to call me back.
Jeremy Weisz 33:53
I don’t know if John, there’s any learnings from that conversation with him, even if it’s like how he thought about certain things you were discussing with the app. And if people don’t know Peter Thiel is he wrote Zero To One. He was one of the co-founders of PayPal, I’m not sure if you pronounce it, Palantir technologies and Founders Fund, and several other thing, many other things. But yeah, people love they’ve mentioned his book on this show Zero To One, many, many times. So check it out. Any learnings from just the conversation you have, just how he thinks about things.
John Driscoll 34:29
It’s interesting. A lot of what he does now is very and you have to understand that this is just the truth. He’s very politically minded, so a lot of his motivations are attached to politics, and so you better, better be able to play well in that world if you’re going to get to know Peter. And so I’m technically, I don’t even know if he knows this. I’m not a Republican, but I’m a Libertarian, so I don’t really care, like it’s kind of like the I don’t care about politics guy, and I was in a room full of Peter’s friends, which are all Republicans.
And just coming from that angle, you had to show that this thing that we were making had a political thing attached to it, and that was part of his agenda, of why he got involved, and why he was in that conversation. And so I think understanding his motivations and what he wants out of the relationship is very, very important. If you’re going into a conversation like that and you don’t know what he wants, then you shouldn’t be in that conversation because you don’t know how to have that conversation. So I think when I was talking to him, I was talking to him more about what he cared about. And this is one of the tips I give people when they get into a room with investors, is you shouldn’t even bring up your thing until they ask you, I never bring up my thing until somebody asks me, I always walk in the room and I’m looking for what kind of value can I bring to somebody else?
And I asked him, and I dig in and ask them questions, and I asked them more questions about that thing that they’re into until they’re digging it up, and at some point that attention will reciprocate on you. And I think that that’s my strategy with anybody in a room like that. And so I knew what he was there for and what he cared about and I gave money to that charity. That’s what you do. You do things like that because you’re trying to get in the room with the right people, and you’re trying to bring value to the table for them. And I believed in what he was doing, so it was cool, but I think that that’s how you have to think, and I think that’s probably why people don’t get in those rooms sometimes.
Jeremy Weisz 36:48
Yeah. I think we have very similar philosophies on that, which is, I’m thinking the same thing, like, what value can I bring to someone else? And it may not be monetary, it may be a connection. And I’ve had people pick my brain about health-related things because of my background as a biochemistry, as a chiropractor. So like, you just never know what value you can provide someone. It doesn’t matter how much money or how much or little they have, there’s always some value in that we can provide someone. Because I feel like a lot of people, I don’t know well, they’re really successful. They don’t need anyone, or they don’t need something, but there’s always something, whatever it is in their life, that someone could bring value to potentially.
John Driscoll 37:32
Absolutely. Everybody has their agendas, right? Like they have their things they’re working on, the things they’re trying to do. And sure you want that person to help you. I’ve been just in the last three, four months. I met some really, really good partners, but I met them by trying to help them with their thing. And then they, like, came back, and they really reciprocated that attention. And then even the thing I did might not even have worked out for them, but they still came back and tried to help me, because we know, we always say stuff like this. I feel like this is some hey, we don’t know we’re end up we’re going to work on something together.
We know that, so we’re just going to keep talking. We’re going to have cigars, we’re going to have drinks, we’re going to spend time together. And I have my buddy Chris Duncan out in Australia, who I spent a lot of time with, and he’s just a genius marketer, and he’s helped me on a project right now that I really appreciate so much, and so I’m helping him on stuff too, and it’s just like, you just kind of scratch each other’s backs. I think that that’s the thing. And if you’re genuine, and authentic about that, that is so attractive to people. It’s something that is really, it’s honestly, so easy when you just have the right intentions, I think. But it’s hard for people that they’re just, they’re constantly stuck with an agenda.
Jeremy Weisz 38:55
Yeah, I think you hit it on the head when your 10 intention is to just bring value to someone, then there’s no reason to be nervous meeting someone because you’re just trying to help them. That’s the way I think about it. So one of the apps that you worked on was a dating app. Talk a little about that, and there’s some I don’t know the full story, but from what it’s controversial.
John Driscoll 39:21
Yeah, so that’s Peter’s app. That’s the one he funded. So it’s obviously has politically charged. And I try to be real honest about this. It’s definitely, we’re gonna split the room on this one a little bit, but it’s okay. We can all be okay about this. I love this topic because I do not know why a Democrat would hate this app? I honestly think they should be the biggest supporters of this app than anybody. So it comes from actually something related to Trump. And there was an app for Trump, people that were trying to date each other, that was actually during Trump’s era.
And what happens if you’re on dating apps is, you’ll find, especially if you’re in like LA or something like that, and you are a conservative Republican, you are ridiculed on these apps like, it is rough, and so a lot of these people really had a hard time dating. And so they wanted to have their own app. They wanted to go, hey, we want to go somewhere safe that we’re not going to be ridiculed for our conservative beliefs. And so a really great founder, one of Trump’s people in his cabinet was Johnny Century. And he started, he used to be with Fox News, and now he’s, like, a huge you’re probably seeing it on TikTok. He’s got a gazillion followers now. And he started this app, and he got Peter to fund it. And you know Peter as that political motivation, and so they did, and it’s so funny that they’ve gotten so much hate on the internet.
And I’m like, okay, so if I’m a Democrat and I’m on Hinge, aren’t I happy that all those people left and went to another app? Wouldn’t that make me happy? I guess I don’t understand the motivation, why that would upset you. So there’s so much hate on the internet about this app, and it’s called the right stuff. It was parodied on Jimmy Kimmel. They did a parody on that. It’s been on every TV network you could imagine. And if you Google it like it’ll come up for days, and you’ll see people, there’s actually a lot of hate on the internet. And I’m just going to dispel this complete falsehood about this app, that it’s all guys and there’s no women on there, and it’s not growing, and it’s a failure. Let me tell you, I’ve seen the data folks. That is not true.
This app is doing very, very well, and all the hate that you’re reading about is people hating on the app because of the politically charged climate. But I don’t understand the motivation behind it. I would think, if I’m out there, I’m happy about these Republicans all dating each other on a different world. I just don’t understand the hate of this. That’s it. That’s it. So the right stuff app If you look at the ratings, you’ll see that there’s a lot of people just going to, they’re haters, and they’re just people just trying to…
Jeremy Weisz 42:35
The dating app for the right wing. Is this?
John Driscoll 42:38
Totally. I’ll take credit for that line. It was something I came up with. Yeah. So I told him, lean into it. Don’t be afraid of the controversy. And if you watch Johnny’s content, he is not afraid of the controversy. And it’s been amazing. And I understand political. How did you get involved in this in the first place? They just Googled us, I think, is how they found us. Yeah, it’s funny. It’s how most people find us. Or podcasts like this, or, you know, different ways that they hear about us on, you know, all over the place.
But if you Google “best app developer in the world,” we come up everywhere. And so it’s that it’s a pretty good, uh, yeah, it’s not bad. So, yeah. So that’s how they found us, and it’s been wildly successful. I’m such a fan of Johnny’s and what he’s doing, I think it’s such a harmless thing that I don’t understand everybody getting so upset about it, but I have to always be really careful when I talk about it, because people get really…
Jeremy Weisz 43:47
Well. I mean, you mentioned, if you mentioned Trump’s name, it doesn’t even matter what it is, you know, it just could be anything, right? Amy, if you said you stayed in the hotel which he licenses name he doesn’t even own, I don’t know how many of the hotels he owns, but I know the one Chicago, I think just licensed name he hasn’t owned the one in Chicago. But yeah, like you state you mentioned that name, and it’s polarizing.
John Driscoll 44:12
Yeah, no, there’s actually, it’s funny, the golf course out here in LA doesn’t get a lot of play because it says Trump on it, and so you can get really good deals on the rounds, and the golf course is spectacular. And I’m like, “This is amazing. Why would I care about some guy’s name on a golf course?” I think that’s just, man, people have got to chill out.
Jeremy Weisz 44:34
Talk about user experience for a second, because you really have to think through user experience. So I don’t know if you want to talk about the dating app as an example, but some of the thought that goes into user experience.
John Driscoll 44:48
Yeah, we helped them create a feature that I’ll call out. And I think Johnny wouldn’t mind me talking about this a little bit. And we came up with a feature that we had not seen in any dating apps. And so dating apps are actually a specific world that I love to talk about. I’m very much known on the internet for some of my dating data that I talk about. So one of the biggest problems that we face with meeting people online is the whole who reaches out first concept. And Bumble kind of started with that with women reach out, and so we created a feature where you just basically a guy can put on where he wants to take somebody on a date.
And I actually, because I’m single, I actually tested this out myself, and I was going to New York, and I was going to see the US Open. And so I posted, and I was on the right stuff for a bit. And I was getting some interest, but I’m 52 I get it right. So it was happening. I was doing all right on there, but it wasn’t great. And as soon as I posted the event date, which is like, you post a date, and then you say what you want to go do, and the ladies kind of get to see your personality by the fact that you’re posting this date. And so it kind of creates more of a spike in interest. And so I posted, I had tickets to the US Open to go see the ladies semifinal. Tennis, and it’s a night thing. It’s a really cool date. And I posted it, and, man, the girls just came flooding in, and I was like, wow, this is really.
Jeremy Weisz 46:33
Like, I hit it on something here.
John Driscoll 46:35
Oh, yeah, yeah. It was a cool feature. You know, we called these sticky features. You’re trying to find something that really resonates with people. And it was very different. There wasn’t a lot of dating apps kind of doing this kind of thing, and so I got a ton of interest and had a lot of discussions and had a date. So, it’s really interesting when you’re doing user experience, how you’re really trying to get into the psychology of what would make somebody do something. And to take a woman from oh, I like his pictures to oh, I want to go there with him, that was just kind of a whole different level of interest that we peaked into. And I actually think the biggest problem with dating apps is the fact that the user experience is addressing both male and female exactly the same way.
And we are not the same, and I’m sorry, I know that’s super controversial and all, but we are not the same, and we’re not interested the same. What I’ve learned in the data is men look at the pictures of a woman and decide whether they like her. A woman has a very, very hard time looking at pictures and staying interested, which is why men swipe 50% of the time and women swipe 5% of the time. So the big gap between our interest level is because of the way the app is built, in the experience and so little things like that. Not understanding the true motivation or psychology of the user is a massive mistake when it comes to designing dating apps right now and we’re seeing it, it’s not working. This big experiment we’ve been in is not working very well.
Jeremy Weisz 48:28
John, I love this topic of sticky features. Maybe that should be the title of your next book or something. Or maybe it’s a subhead and going through, because I love, I mean, we have limited time right now, but I love to hear, like, all the sticky features, because it’s rooted in, like you said, psychology and behavior. And that would be really interesting to hear. Here’s like, 10 sticky features, and what we discovered across different segments of apps, and I’m sure there’s things that apply to all of them. So I love that topic, but we’re running short on time, so I have one last question.
Sure go ahead. Love the year for the next hour of all the sticky features you guys have created or discovered, first, I just tell people check out nakeddev.com to learn more and learn more about John and his company. And last question is just some of your favorite resources. It could be books. It could be a mentor, distant mentor that you don’t know, or actually mentor is giving you advice, some of your favorite resources that people should check out.
John Driscoll 49:34
I have one right here, actually, so if you have not read, and I know he’s blowing up. So most people are familiar with him now, but Alex Hormozi book, $100 Million Offers it’s not just a must-read, but it’s kind of like, if you haven’t read this book and you’re trying to market people, I honestly feel like you’re completely missing the whole thing, because what he’s on to right now is changing marketing in such a massive way. And so I think that that book is, is great. I think the book that he actually gets a lot from out of that book, which is, gosh, I’m looking for it now, I didn’t know you’re gonna ask me this question.
Jeremy Weisz 50:25
So the first one, his first book, well, or because he’s got $100 Million Leads and $100 Million Offers.
John Driscoll 50:34
Yeah, this is the second book actually got him, yeah, but 100 Million Dollar Offers. And then there’s a book that was that he refers to a lot in that, and it is called Influence by Robert Cialdini. And as a CEO or a founder, to me, the best kind of CEO is a marketing-based CEO, and so because you’re really getting into the mind of your user and trying to understand how to serve them best in marketing. So I think those two books are just fantastic resources for getting in the mind of how to serve your customer.
Jeremy Weisz 51:13
I love it. Yeah, thanks, yeah. I love that book, Robert’s Influence. It reminds me of Dan Ariely’s book, Predictably Irrational. So people haven’t checked that out. It’s also gets in the psychology of why people do certain things. So and then check out you know Alex Hormozi book, as John suggested. So check out nakeddev.com to learn more and more episodes of the podcast. And John, thanks so much. We’ll see everyone next time.
John Driscoll 51:40
Thank you so much. Appreciate you having me.
