Jeremy Weisz 12:40
So biggest mistakes people make would you say, some may be not having that layer? Um, at what point should you should accompany Is that the right size to add that layer in if they don’t already have it? Because they may be thinking, David, that sounds great. You know, We don’t even have that. I don’t know if a lot of companies come to you they don’t have that at all or they just want to improve that layer. At what point should someone add that layer into? You know, SDR? BDR the sales developers into their company?
David Dulany 13:15
Yeah, definitely. So it like you said, it all depends on the size of the company and really, the industry too. So the SDR layer is a standard practice in software as a service. We’re based in San Francisco. I don’t travel much because a lot of our work is right here in San Francisco, because literally, most of the SAS companies have this layer. So they need help to perfect that. But, you know, beyond that is Glassdoor right? You put
Jeremy Weisz 13:47
the systems in place, they’re pretty much right.
David Dulany 13:50
We did. I mean, that was back in the day. There was a seminal work that came out called Predictable Revenue by a guy named Aaron Ross It’s it’s still very well worked for Salesforce, right? Or he got him on the field. Yeah, exactly. So he had put it together at Salesforce, which is a SaaS company, and perfected that model and then made it into a book. And, you know, to your question. Now, when someone spins up a SaaS product, and they feel like they’ve got a good go-to market fit, to be able to go out and sell it, you know, they’ll usually hire an all-around salesperson, somebody who’s doing the little bit of marketing, a little bit of sales, development and closing deals, you know, get that going for a while, get some sales coming in. And then they hire another person to be a full-cycle sales and another person and suddenly now you’ve got three people. There are not many pipelines coming in from just the marketing funnel at the top, and the three people are sitting there going, I was hired to sell Sell and my calendars empty and I’m not getting any leads. So then they go, Oh, well get on the phone start prospecting, you know, start cold calling. And the salespeople are just like, great, you know, it’s like the worst thing is it’s not gonna pay the bills. You know? So that’s when these companies start to go, okay, we’ve read Predictable Revenue. We’ve been on 10 bound. Okay, we get it. Let’s hire an SDR let’s hire a BDR. They call them all different things. Let’s hire someone whose main job is to fill up the calendar of those sales reps so that they’re not spinning their wheels every day. Boom. Then it goes. So that’s in a SaaS model. And so you go from you know, one SDR at a smaller company across the street here at Salesforce where they probably have about 150 you know, who are just in charge of setting those appointments. Now, if you get outside of our little Silicon Valley, NYC, you know Austin Denver bubble that we have of technology companies, they call them different things. You know, they call them inside sales, they call it telemarketing. They call it you know, other things. But they’re those other industries are just starting to see this machine that they could potentially put in place and starting to, you know, get into it. So it should be interesting to see how that
Jeremy Weisz 16:25
you do you help people advise on hiring and training. That layer str is BDR is those type of people what are some of the big mistakes with hiring them bringing them on?
Unknown Speaker 16:38
Oh, God, how much time do you know? So we’re going to use
Unknown Speaker 16:43
10 minutes
Jeremy Weisz 16:45
20 minutes.
David Dulany 16:48
So, you know, the stereotypical hiring model is we’re going to get a person fresh out of college. No experience, no sales experience. You know, pay them half of the AV the account executive salary, and have them get up to speed and start cranking out appointments. You know that that model works to some extent if you’ve got a great training program and you could spend a lot of
Jeremy Weisz 17:18
time by Achieve Global knows right
David Dulany 17:21
10 out of 10 votes,
Jeremy Weisz 17:23
right exactly. 10 down comes in exactly is the next generation of Achieve Global.
David Dulany 17:30
Yes, exactly. But if you don’t have time to spend all that time with them, you can’t just stick them with the sales rep and say here you train them because the sales rep again wants to sell they don’t want to be training somebody generally and so, you know, big mistake is hire someone fresh out of college, stick them in front of a computer, give them a list of names and go, go for it. Good luck. So a better way to do that is by somebody that has had some sales experience can show you that they can, you know, get on the phone get rejected, you know, get beat up a little bit has some grit and, and wants to break into your industry. You know, look at those resumes, give them a chance because sometimes those are the best SDRs that you can get, even if they don’t follow the exact hiring model that’s stereotyped in Silicon Valley.
Jeremy Weisz 18:28
You know, Dave, I love what you just said. grit, right? Yeah. So how do you find people with grit? What are some of the maybe the positions you’ve discovered throughout the years? Oh, that maybe most people wouldn’t think of because they didn’t take the stereotypical path?
David Dulany 18:45
Yeah, well, one of the worst kept secrets. In SDR land is collegiate athletes or, you know, Semi-Pro amateur athletes who are looking to break in, you know, either to the tech industry or whatever you No kind of industry that you’re in a lot of grit there, they have to get up at 5am. They’ve got to train themselves. They’ve got to, you know, follow a strict diet. So there’s some great potential there. The question is, can they pivot that to sitting in front of a computer or sending emails and Calling Strangers all day? Okay. The other thing is people that maybe have been super successful in other sales positions, but their sales positions that don’t make much money in door-to-door sales, you know, Cutco knives, college works painting. And if they’ve got some kind of track record, where they did really, really well in those high rejection, high stress positions, hey, you bring that grit to the tech industry. You could be making six figures within a couple of years with that same kind of attitude. So you look at those resumes b2c, they worked at the sprint store, but you want to see make sure that they have some kind of demonstratable you know, track record, they have a trophy. They’d been there for a few years, they got promoted something like that.
Jeremy Weisz 20:03
Yeah, I love that. Yeah. My sister worked as a car salesman for like five years. And so I could see that being a ton of rejection really tough, but it translates to, you know, one of the, you know, software tech. Well, you know, she worked then went on to work for Salesforce. So I guess that that applies. 100%
David Dulany 20:23
Yeah, door to door. So always take a risk. I mean, you never know what’s gonna happen. Everybody’s on their best behavior. You know, when this is just in general. You know, you got your nicest shirt, you’re looking great. You’ve got tons of energy. You’re never really going to know until three to six months into it if there
Jeremy Weisz 20:42
Yeah, that’s what I was gonna ask next is about red flags, because obviously their salespeople are probably good at sales pretty good. Even if they’re pretty good. They sell you on hiring stuff, right? Yeah, what’s maybe some of the red flags people should look out for?
David Dulany 20:57
A huge red flag in the SDR world Is coachability you know, can they listen? Can they put their ego aside? Listen, try some new things to come back to you. And let you know if you at least tried it. And you know, it’s been a couple of years but when I was running SDR teams and still, you know, when we’re doing consulting and training, if somebody knows it all, they already know everything, and you’re trying to get them to get back on track. It’s the worst. I mean, it’s just it’s a huge red flag. So hire for Coachability is the main thing beyond grit. I mean, I would say that that’s one of the top two or three attributes. Yeah.
Jeremy Weisz 21:42
So you some of your mentors or distant mentors, you mentioned Jim Rohn. What are some of the other resources or people that you followed throughout your career?
David Dulany 21:53
Oh, gosh, I mean, how much time Yeah, yeah, not much. So, you know, I would definitely check out If you’re in the entrepreneurial space, if you haven’t heard of Dan Sullivan, he runs Strategic Coach in Toronto. Come to Chicago to Yeah, he comes. Yeah, they’ve got programs. I am just a fan, a huge fan of anything that comes out of that guy’s mouth. I’m new to entrepreneurship. I was in the corporate world for 20 years. And we started this and you know, Dan Sullivan has been an amazing resource for me.
Jeremy Weisz 22:32
Who else? Jim Rohn. Dan Sullivan. I’m curious. I got my audible cue his needs three credits in there. So I need some recommendations from you.
David Dulany 22:41
Yeah, I mean, I would definitely get on the daily stoic, you know newsletter with Ryan Holiday, and pick up a few Ryan Holiday books. I read the daily stoic every day. It’s been a huge, huge help in you know, just like I said, 2320 300-year-old philosophy that is fresh and useful today as it was back then. You know, to that extent to someone who’s really been influential, influential on me is a guy named Jocko Willink. Who totally sure that your listeners are aware of the ex-navy seal. I saw him speak at a conference a couple of years ago about a couple of his books, you know, discipline and talk about grit, right? Yeah, I mean, you know, we all have our strengths and weaknesses, self-discipline, getting up in the morning, making your bed, you know, and all those things. Definitely something I need to work on and in the entrepreneurial space. You don’t have a boss, there’s nobody breathing down your neck, except for your customers and making them happy. But they’re your customers are not going to be there at 630 in the morning, say get your ass out of bed, right so you got to do it. And so his work has helped me to like, kind of kick my ass a little bit.
Jeremy Weisz 23:59
You Yeah, I had Mark Devine on who’s also, you know, ex-navy seal. He runs a huge facility in San Diego. And he puts people through Kokoro, which is like a Navy SEAL Hell Week, like for civilians or navy seals, and I know some people have gone through it. They said, like, I was like, Oh, this sounds great doing the research for that interview. And then I saw someone I know who does Iron Man, like, no problem. And they’re like, this is the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life. I’m like, forget it. I don’t know if this is I’m out baby steps. Yeah.
David Dulany 24:37
Yeah, there’s a guy named Wim Hof that I had
Jeremy Weisz 24:42
Wim Hof on the show.
David Dulany 24:43
Okay. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, I was gonna say he said it in baths of ice. Oh, so I’m going to use the Iceman here with a cold shower there. Well, yeah. And then I’ll work up to that.
Jeremy Weisz 24:54
I’ve gone through his course online course actually. It’s remarkable stuff. Yeah, check out that Wim Hof. Great suggestion. Awesome. People like to geek out about tech, I’m sure, like, what tools do I use? I’m sure you get this question all the time. And I’m, I’m curious about your thoughts. And it could be, you could name multiple for different, you know, aspects, whether it’s calling or keeping track or, you know, there’s a million different pieces of the funnel. I’m curious what comes to mind most for people’s tech stacks that you see.
David Dulany 25:31
Yeah, I mean, you can definitely go crazy on this. The, you know, the listeners may have seen there’s a Martech 5000 I think it’s more than 5000 marketing tools. There’s a sales time that I’ve seen that, but there’s one specific to sales technology, you know, all the way through the pipeline. And then we actually put together a niche to one, okay, it’s only sales development.
Jeremy Weisz 25:54
So where should we see it?
David Dulany 25:56
10 that’s over. Yeah. 10 bound.com forward. slash market dash map the market mapper Just go to ten.com research. And the reason I bring that up is there are a whole toolset and service set that are focused on just that middle layer of the SD. It’s amazing.
Jeremy Weisz 26:15
Yeah. And I’m looking at it right now.
David Dulany 26:18
Yeah, it’s it was more of just a passion project. I wanted to see how we could, you know, organize this into something. And then our next step was, okay, we’ve got, you know, 300 companies on here, how do you organize this better? So we created a directory, that each of the companies that are on there can fill in their directory, what was your value prop? Tell us how you’re different and give us some case studies. Just Boom, boom, boom, super quick. And, you know, to your question, there’s some fundamental tools and services that you need in sales development, and then there’s the full stack, you know, and it just depends if you’re that company that has one SDR. And you’re trying to get some appointments for your sales team, you probably can get away with, you know, maybe a good recruiting agency or a sales education agency to give you the best person, good data. And then some kind of they call it sales engagement platform, which is, you know, key. It’s the keeping everything on track for the SDR. So they’re not, you know, over there doing something off off the reservation. So if you’ve, if you’ve got those basic fundamentals in place, then you’re going to be pretty good to go for a while. Yeah. And then you want to start to as you become more sophisticated layer things on depending on where you see gaps in your process. But you really data is you got somebody doing the job, right? So you gotta hire step one,
Jeremy Weisz 27:51
step one, you need an operator,
David Dulany 27:54
you know, even if I say as I say that, you know, one of the biggest questions difference that we have there is the outsourced SDR industry, which continues to grow. And that’s basically, you know, you’re a CEO, and you’re sitting there going, you know, I just want appointments. I don’t want to hire these people. I don’t want to train them. I don’t want to do all this
Unknown Speaker 28:15
money, just the money and I don’t do anything.
David Dulany 28:18
Yeah. Let me just outsource this. And there’s just every time we redo the market map, we find 10 other 20 other companies that will Yeah, I see
Jeremy Weisz 28:30
that outsourced services. I can see you squeezing all of these things in. Yeah, and I
David Dulany 28:36
have to make another whole quadrant of this because I think that it’s a growing thing, especially, you know, if companies are just like, hey, look, I just want the result, man.
Unknown Speaker 28:48
I don’t want to I can see that.
David Dulany 28:50
Yeah, I just want the result. I’ll hire these. And you got to be careful about that. Yeah.
Jeremy Weisz 28:55
So go to 10 bound calm at the top navigation risks. It drops down to sales development market map, click on that. And you’ll see the treasure trove of probably he’s put this together over 16 years of being in the industry. And you can see there and you there is a view directory. So you said that companies can go in there and actually add themselves to that directory. There’s no cost or fee.
David Dulany 29:24
Nope, that Nope, it’s just, you know, a lot of the traffic that comes to 10 bound is the SDRs and the SDR managers and they’re always looking for direction on what are the top tools? Yeah, that’s awesome. So we’re trying to make that available.
Jeremy Weisz 29:41
Yeah. So when you look at that, I’ll just give you like you mentioned there are communities recruiting Voice over IP phone systems, you recommend marketing automation, sales enablement, mailings, and then all those other pieces so it looks like the left is kind of the fundamentals pieces. And then as you can, you know, the side and there’s a huge thing of outsourced services. So I’d have to blow this thing up to, to read all of them. But, um, but I think it generally it’s really cool just to see what pieces maybe people are missing or not using as a broad category, you know, not just the specifics, you know, like, oh, team, man, I don’t have team management. So I mean, not that people just, they just want to add software. But, uh, but But seriously, like, there’s a gamification like, Oh, that makes sense. I’m not gamifying enough. And I think just seeing the categories will give people ideas of what they should be doing with their team.
David Dulany 30:44
100% Yeah, exactly. And then like you said, it’s, it’s what is the process that you’re trying to put in place, and then where are the gaps that might potentially be filled by a product or service? You know, where we see people get in trouble is they go the other way. And they just sort of start plugging in all these different tools and then next thing you know, the person who’s running the show leaves the company, and nobody even knows the password, all these things. Yeah, it’s like, there’s got to be a more strategic approach. And so hopefully that can help.
Jeremy Weisz 31:17
What advice I know it’s gonna vary Do you give to people I’m sure. When if they’re asking you advice on outsourced the outsource services, like when to keep it in-house or maybe do a combination, maybe there’s a good use case that you’ve advised someone on. You don’t have to name names on what you recommended to a specific company on a combination of that.
David Dulany 31:41
Yeah, it’s interesting because we set out to answer that very question. We did a buyer survey of people who bought outsource services and what was important to them and how they went down the different categories and it’s available. There’s a free executive summary on there in the research section, but The bottom line is, if you look at it like a puzzle piece, there could be no pieces. That means you just don’t even have an SDR program and you need one of those services to come in and, and complete the picture so that you can get some appointments. In other situations, you’ve got some of the puzzle pieces. So you actually have an SDR, you’ve got some data, but there’s, they’re having trouble personalizing the messaging. So you could plug in one of those companies to just help you to personalize the message, give it to your in house person and make them more effective. You know, and there’s a lot of different use cases in that regard where you don’t want your in-house person doing everything. They just need some very specialized information for your industry that you could potentially outsource. And so it just depends if you if I would just recommend if you kind of Whiteboard out your process and you see a huge gap that’s bigger than what somebody can do in the office, you might want to look at some of those outsource companies, and talk to them about how they could potentially help.
Jeremy Weisz 33:09
So David talked about the conferences a little bit. How did you get into the conference business and what should people expect when they come to? And that’s how someone you know on who listens to inspired Insider. It’s like, you gotta check out what David’s doing 10 pound the conferences, everything. And that’s how I discovered what you’re up to. So, I’d love to
David Dulany 33:31
Oh, that’s amazing. Yeah, it’s been great. I mean, we, when we started the company, you know, we started doing meetups here in San Francisco, of just the sales, development managers and the reps could come and just start to build that community because, you know, there wasn’t anything necessarily focused on just that that SDR world that I could find. And it kind of evolved into a conference here in San Francisco for you know, back in two 2017 when we started it, it was just managers. You know, if you’re running these teams and trying to figure out how to put those together, then we added a layer for the reps to come and do some training with their managers. And then we add a layer for revenue operations, which is kind of the person in the background, doing all the plumbing, if you will, and keeping these things organized. So now we’ve got three tracks in the San Francisco conference, it’s the bigger conference, and we’re replicating the playbook out in New York City. Later in the summer, just doing a leadership track. So it’s the people out in NYC who are running these teams, the executives or, you know, they want to get into management of these teams, they can come to the one day conference out there.
Jeremy Weisz 34:49
So if you can’t already, like from my six hours of research or more in his website, there’s a lot to check out at 10 bound comm so check it out. My last question to questions, David, I totally appreciate your time and expertise. Because, you know, all sales are a lot of times the lifeblood of a business. So not having all these pieces in place is detrimental, obviously. So check it out. I always ask two questions. It’s inspired insider one, what’s been a low moment and how you push through challenging and then on the flip side, what’s been an especially proud moment that you think about So, you know, an entrepreneur, THE WORLD LAUNCH for sales, like you take a lot of hits, a lot of rejection. What’s been a low moment how you push through.
David Dulany 35:44
Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s interesting because there’s kind of two sides of the coin. So a low moment was even back in my corporate days, I was working for a great company, great leadership, tons of potential, but it wasn’t necessarily in the subject. Matter space that I was really into, so I left the company and went to a company that was in the subject matter it was in the sales development, you know, area but it didn’t have all the great aspects of the company, the other company, so I took a plunge terrible experience left took another plunge. Again working for somebody horrible experience left. And you know, it was at a crossroads completely broken, confused, didn’t know what was going on. And, you know, was had to make some kind of change because I’ve got mouths to feed right. And, and started to pick up some consulting and training gigs I realized that I was, you know, had a valuable skill in being an expert in this sales development world. And, and so, that was a low point that became a high point because ever since I decided to burn the ship Right and you know that expression, burn the ships, not going back to the corporate world, I’m going headfirst into entrepreneurship, we’re going to start 10 bound and we’re going to rock it. Once I made that decision, I have never been happier in my career. And in my life, I mean, I feel different. I feel like you know, the chemicals are running differently because I made that decision. And you know, I mean, I’m not driving a gold plated Rolls Royce by any way.
Jeremy Weisz 37:30
You may not end with so right
David Dulany 37:33
I mean, you know, so hopefully, someday it’ll pay off and be super lucrative financially but just spiritually, and, you know, physically, it’s just been an amazing experience. And so, you know, anybody out there who’s going through something that’s just utter crap and feel like shit right now. I would say Hang in there. I mean, I know it’s kind of a cliche, but hang in there. Stay positive. Take care. hear yourself because it could be the best thing that ever happened to you.
Jeremy Weisz 38:04
I mean, sometimes it was comfort and knowing that’s normal. Like, we’ve all gone through that, you know what I mean? And if you haven’t, I don’t know anyone who hasn’t really, um, in some aspect. On the flip side, what have you been especially proud of with? With tempo?
David Dulany 38:21
Yeah, I mean, the, you know, the progress that we’ve made from a bootstrapped, you know, service base company to where we are today as just been amazing to see it grow and to see it become successful. And the more companies that get into sales development and start, you know, sales development programs beyond the tech industry, the more potential I see in it, so it’s just, it’s thrilling every day to be able to grow something from nothing. And that’s just been a high point for me.
Jeremy Weisz 38:58
Yeah. David. I want to do the first one to thank you so much for your time everyone check out 10 bound comm that’s spelled out t e n bound.com. And check out what they have on their site. Thanks, David.
